[AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT

Wed Sep 3 19:35:11 EST 2014

Well if it was *just* dns, it's not really a huge issue..  I was more
thinking where it's a customer's whole hosting, which might be more like
30-40gb of emails, web, database, etc..  That does cost to have sitting
there doing nothing.. :)

On 3 September 2014 17:57, Chard, Alex (REA-SYD) <
Alex.Chard at reed-elsevier.com.au> wrote:

>  Yes, I do understand this point.. but for DNS in particular, how much
> extra does it cost you to maintain that zone?
> I would have thought its cheap enough that you can afford to not clean-up
> for say 3 months and not notice (or even be able to quantify) the impact to
> your bottom line.
>
>
>
> --Alex
>
>
>
> *From:* Damien Gardner Jnr [mailto:rendrag at rendrag.net]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 3 September 2014 1:17 PM
> *To:* Chard, Alex (REA-SYD)
> *Cc:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>
>
>
> As much as I disagree with removing a zone as soon as a customer changes
> their delegation, I can kinda see where they're coming from.
>
>
>
> The amount of times I've had a customer get to 2-3 months past due on an
> invoice (Ok, that doesn't happen anymore, I got jack of it, and accounts
> get suspended 14 days past due, and accounts terminated and all data
> deleted a further 14 days later), and when you finally get onto them to let
> them know you're going to debt collection, and they come back with a 'Oh,
> but we moved away from you four months ago!  Why would we pay you?' is
> really quite disturbing.   Customers just don't understand that if the
> general internet sees it as going to another Host, that it's still costing
> the old Host money to have sitting there (without starting an argument
> about separating authoritative and recursive DNS on the network).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3 September 2014 13:08, Chard, Alex (REA-SYD) <
> Alex.Chard at reed-elsevier.com.au> wrote:
>
>  Seems to me the correct way to solve this issue would be to charge a
> (small) fee for the DNS hosting.
>
> That way, customers will be aware that they have a DNS zone on your DNS
> servers (via their bill), and have some incentive to clean up if they
> delegate away.
>
>
>
> If you do end up with zones that are not delegated to your DNS servers…
> doesn’t matter, you’re being paid to host them.
>
>
>
> To the actual issue here… can you tell the DNS host that you wish to use
> them as a secondary/tertiary DNS host until your migration is complete?
>
>
>
> From what I’ve seen, MelbourneIt have gone downhill over the last few
> years. We have almost entirely migrated away from their registrar services
> since they sold their corporate arm to CSC because of poor service.
>
>
>
> --Alex Chard
>
>
>
> *From:* AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *
> Tony
>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 3 September 2014 11:02 AM
> *To:* Joseph Goldman; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>
>
>
> So let me play devils advocate here, what would you like them to do ?
>
>
>
> The way I see it they (Melb IT) have two options:
>
>
>
> 1. You delegate the hosting to other NS, they drop the zone from their NS
> (which is what has been said below, how it happens NOW)
>
> 2. They keep the zone active on their NS while you set it up at another
> provider and then at some later point in time you/they have to remove it
> from their NS
>
>
>
> I think we'd all agree that it's pointless (and bad form) to have zones
> kicking around on your NS that are not delegated to that NS. It's untidy
> and worse case is it will produce false replies for anyone that happens to
> try and lookup something from that zone from the 'old' NS.
>
>
>
> So if they were to go with the 2nd option they run the risk that this will
> happen, old/stale zones that are no longer delegated to Melb IT NS, but
> still exist on them. The only way to avoid these stale zones would be to
> either:
>
>
>
> i). Rely on customer to delete them (or create a ticket to say migration
> was complete and they can now be deleted).
>
> ii). Have some sort of script that runs on a daily/weekly basis and
> compares zones delegated to zones that exist on NS and delete any zones
> that are no longer delegated to Melb IT NS.
>
>
>
> We all know that relying on customers to do anything is fraught with
> problems. If you want it done, you need to do it yourself. Also remember
> that a good proportion of Melb IT customers may not be so DNS literate.
>
>
>
> If they scripted it, you just increase your work load, have potential for
> problem and still potentially have people who would complain because the
> script ran at 2300 Friday and they had started the redelegation process at
> 2200 Friday (ie. 1 hour before script start) and so they still wanted the
> domain to stay on the old NS for another few days (of course you could
> mitigate against this by checking each day and flagging stuff as "to be
> deleted" then leaving it for a few more days before it actually gets
> deleted, but really how far do you take this !)
>
>
>
>
>
> It's a bit of a hard line, but I can see where they are coming from. It
> hopefully produces the most consistent result for all at the end of the day
> and saves them wasting resources. You're no longer wishing to use their NS,
> why should the zone continue to exist on their NS ?
>
>
>
>
>
> At least now that you know about it, you can factor it into your migration
> process.
>
>
>
>
>
> regards,
>
> Tony.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Joseph Goldman <joe at apcs.com.au>
> *To:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:54 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>
>
> Yikes thats harsh.
>
> See if you can set your TTL's down real low for the important records
> (A, MX etc) wait a day or 2 then do it - at least hopefully then the
> world is aware of low TTL and the time from them removing from their
> NS's to servers checking your new ones should be quick.
>
> On 03/09/14 09:50, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:
> > Yep that was my thought.
> >
> > So I have setup my master DNS, setup my secondary, tested against their
> NS.
> >
> > Went to the Melbourne IT site.
> > Went to re delegate... then it says you can't, you have to un manage it
> from MelbourneIT and it has to be done first.
> >
> > Basically it deletes it from their NS servers, happens almost
> immediately, I checked against their NS servers.
> >
> > I have a few domains that I am looking at moving over... So this is
> going to be a painful task.
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Jonathan Thorpe [mailto:jthorpe at Conexim.com.au]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:43 AM
> >> To: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> >> Subject: RE: Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
> >>
> >> Hi Alex,
> >>
> >> That doesn't sound right to me.
> >>
> >> The domain delegation and authoritative DNS are usually handled
> >> independently.
> >>
> >> It should be a matter of:
> >> 1. Set up the DNS records on the new service.
> >> 2. Re-delegate the domain to the new nameservers.
> >>
> >> If you've set up new nameservers with new records already, then you
> should
> >> be able to login to the Melbourne IT management console and perform the
> >> re-delegation yourself.
> >>
> >> Once this is done, allow 24-48 hours for the change to propagate (this
> will
> >> depend on the TTLs), then cancel the DNS service.
> >>
> >> Kind Regards,
> >> Jonathan Thorpe
> >>
> >> --
> >> Conexim Australia Pty. Limited | www.conexim.com.au
> >> Phone: 1300 133 900 | Fax: 1300 851 747 | Direct: 02 8214 5804 Managed
> >> Hosting Excellence | Australian Government Endorsed Supplier
> >>
> >> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Alex
> >> Samad - Yieldbroker
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:34 AM
> >> To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> >> Subject: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> So I have decided to move my zone from Melbourne IT.
> >>
> >> But there is a hitch, seems like Melbourne IT will delete my zone off
> their NS
> >> before they start the root re delegation.
> >>
> >> Just spent a 10-15 min talking to their support (24x7), which is really
> only 10-5.
> >>
> >> I remember before, you just went to a web site with your zone key made
> >> the NS changes and off you go. Takes 24-48 hours for it to propagate
> >> depending on TTL's.  Now that function seems to be with the registrars
> and
> >> Melbourne IT don't want to play nice.
> >>
> >> Seems to be like they are just making it hard to move off melbIT...
> >>
> >> A
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> >> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
>
>
>
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> --
>
> Damien Gardner Jnr
> VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust
> rendrag at rendrag.net -  http://www.rendrag.net/
> --
> We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
>  We ran to the sounds of thunder.
> We danced among the lightning bolts,
>  and tore the world asunder
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-- 

Damien Gardner Jnr
VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust
rendrag at rendrag.net -  http://www.rendrag.net/
--
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
 We ran to the sounds of thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
 and tore the world asunder
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