<div dir="ltr">Well if it was *just* dns, it's not really a huge issue.. I was more thinking where it's a customer's whole hosting, which might be more like 30-40gb of emails, web, database, etc.. That does cost to have sitting there doing nothing.. :)</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 3 September 2014 17:57, Chard, Alex (REA-SYD) <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Alex.Chard@reed-elsevier.com.au" target="_blank">Alex.Chard@reed-elsevier.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Yes, I do understand this point.. but for DNS in particular, how much extra does it cost you to maintain that zone?<br>
I would have thought its cheap enough that you can afford to not clean-up for say 3 months and not notice (or even be able to quantify) the impact to your bottom line.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">--Alex</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> Damien Gardner Jnr [mailto:<a href="mailto:rendrag@rendrag.net" target="_blank">rendrag@rendrag.net</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 3 September 2014 1:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Chard, Alex (REA-SYD)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a></span></p><div><div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT</div></div><p></p><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As much as I disagree with removing a zone as soon as a customer changes their delegation, I can kinda see where they're coming from. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The amount of times I've had a customer get to 2-3 months past due on an invoice (Ok, that doesn't happen anymore, I got jack of it, and accounts get suspended 14 days past due, and accounts terminated and all data deleted a further 14
days later), and when you finally get onto them to let them know you're going to debt collection, and they come back with a 'Oh, but we moved away from you four months ago! Why would we pay you?' is really quite disturbing. Customers just don't understand
that if the general internet sees it as going to another Host, that it's still costing the old Host money to have sitting there (without starting an argument about separating authoritative and recursive DNS on the network).</p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3 September 2014 13:08, Chard, Alex (REA-SYD) <<a href="mailto:Alex.Chard@reed-elsevier.com.au" target="_blank">Alex.Chard@reed-elsevier.com.au</a>> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Seems to me the correct way to solve this issue would be to charge a (small) fee for the DNS hosting.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">That way, customers will be aware that they have a DNS zone on your DNS servers (via their bill), and have some incentive to clean up if they delegate
away.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If you do end up with zones that are not delegated to your DNS servers… doesn’t matter, you’re being paid to host them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">To the actual issue here… can you tell the DNS host that you wish to use them as a secondary/tertiary DNS host until your migration is complete?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">From what I’ve seen, MelbourneIt have gone downhill over the last few years. We have almost entirely migrated away from their registrar services
since they sold their corporate arm to CSC because of poor service.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">--Alex Chard</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> AusNOG [mailto:<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Tony</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 3 September 2014 11:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Joseph Goldman; <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">
ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">So let me play devils advocate here, what would you like them to do ?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">The way I see it they (Melb IT) have two options:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">1. You delegate the hosting to other NS, they drop the zone from their NS (which is what has been said below, how it happens NOW)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">2. They keep the zone active on their NS while you set it up at another provider and then at some later point in time you/they have to remove it
from their NS</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">I think we'd all agree that it's pointless (and bad form) to have zones kicking around on your NS that are not delegated to that NS. It's untidy
and worse case is it will produce false replies for anyone that happens to try and lookup something from that zone from the 'old' NS.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">So if they were to go with the 2nd option they run the risk that this will happen, old/stale zones that are no longer delegated to Melb IT NS, but
still exist on them. The only way to avoid these stale zones would be to either:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">i). Rely on customer to delete them (or create a ticket to say migration was complete and they can now be deleted).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">ii). Have some sort of script that runs on a daily/weekly basis and compares zones delegated to zones that exist on NS and delete any zones that
are no longer delegated to Melb IT NS.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">We all know that relying on customers to do anything is fraught with problems. If you want it done, you need to do it yourself. Also remember that
a good proportion of Melb IT customers may not be so DNS literate.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">If they scripted it, you just increase your work load, have potential for problem and still potentially have people who would complain because the
script ran at 2300 Friday and they had started the redelegation process at 2200 Friday (ie. 1 hour before script start) and so they still wanted the domain to stay on the old NS for another few days (of course you could mitigate against this by checking each
day and flagging stuff as "to be deleted" then leaving it for a few more days before it actually gets deleted, but really how far do you take this !)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">It's a bit of a hard line, but I can see where they are coming from. It hopefully produces the most consistent result for all at the end of the day
and saves them wasting resources. You're no longer wishing to use their NS, why should the zone continue to exist on their NS ?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">At least now that you know about it, you can factor it into your migration process.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">Tony.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center;background:white">
<span style="color:black">
<hr size="1" width="100%" align="center">
</span></div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> Joseph Goldman <<a href="mailto:joe@apcs.com.au" target="_blank">joe@apcs.com.au</a>><br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:54 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="color:black"><br>
Yikes thats harsh.<br>
<br>
See if you can set your TTL's down real low for the important records <br>
(A, MX etc) wait a day or 2 then do it - at least hopefully then the <br>
world is aware of low TTL and the time from them removing from their <br>
NS's to servers checking your new ones should be quick.<br>
<br>
On 03/09/14 09:50, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:<br>
> Yep that was my thought.<br>
><br>
> So I have setup my master DNS, setup my secondary, tested against their NS.<br>
><br>
> Went to the Melbourne IT site.<br>
> Went to re delegate... then it says you can't, you have to un manage it from MelbourneIT and it has to be done first.<br>
><br>
> Basically it deletes it from their NS servers, happens almost immediately, I checked against their NS servers.<br>
><br>
> I have a few domains that I am looking at moving over... So this is going to be a painful task.<br>
><br>
> Alex<br>
><br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> From: Jonathan Thorpe [mailto:<a href="mailto:jthorpe@Conexim.com.au" target="_blank">jthorpe@Conexim.com.au</a>]<br>
>> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:43 AM<br>
>> To: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker; <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">
ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
>> Subject: RE: Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT<br>
>><br>
>> Hi Alex,<br>
>><br>
>> That doesn't sound right to me.<br>
>><br>
>> The domain delegation and authoritative DNS are usually handled<br>
>> independently.<br>
>><br>
>> It should be a matter of:<br>
>> 1. Set up the DNS records on the new service.<br>
>> 2. Re-delegate the domain to the new nameservers.<br>
>><br>
>> If you've set up new nameservers with new records already, then you should<br>
>> be able to login to the Melbourne IT management console and perform the<br>
>> re-delegation yourself.<br>
>><br>
>> Once this is done, allow 24-48 hours for the change to propagate (this will<br>
>> depend on the TTLs), then cancel the DNS service.<br>
>><br>
>> Kind Regards,<br>
>> Jonathan Thorpe<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Conexim Australia Pty. Limited | <a href="http://www.conexim.com.au" target="_blank">
www.conexim.com.au</a><br>
>> Phone: 1300 133 900 | Fax: 1300 851 747 | Direct: 02 8214 5804 Managed<br>
>> Hosting Excellence | Australian Government Endorsed Supplier<br>
>><br>
>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail<br>
>><br>
>> PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL<br>
>> This email message and attachments contain information that is confidential<br>
>> to Conexim Australia Pty Limited. If you are not the intended recipient you<br>
>> are not permitted to use, copy or distribute the message and or attachments<br>
>> in any manner. If you have received this email in error, please inform the<br>
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>> should not be removed.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> From: AusNOG [mailto:<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>] On Behalf Of Alex<br>
>> Samad - Yieldbroker<br>
>> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:34 AM<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
>> Subject: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT<br>
>><br>
>> Hi<br>
>><br>
>> So I have decided to move my zone from Melbourne IT.<br>
>><br>
>> But there is a hitch, seems like Melbourne IT will delete my zone off their NS<br>
>> before they start the root re delegation.<br>
>><br>
>> Just spent a 10-15 min talking to their support (24x7), which is really only 10-5.<br>
>><br>
>> I remember before, you just went to a web site with your zone key made<br>
>> the NS changes and off you go. Takes 24-48 hours for it to propagate<br>
>> depending on TTL's. Now that function seems to be with the registrars and<br>
>> Melbourne IT don't want to play nice.<br>
>><br>
>> Seems to be like they are just making it hard to move off melbIT...<br>
>><br>
>> A<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> AusNOG mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
>> <a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><span style="color:black"> </span></p>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<p>Damien Gardner Jnr<br>
VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust<br>
<a href="mailto:rendrag@rendrag.net" target="_blank">rendrag@rendrag.net</a> - <a href="http://www.rendrag.net/" target="_blank">http://www.rendrag.net/</a><u><br>
</u>--<br>
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br>
We ran to the sounds of thunder.<br>
We danced among the lightning bolts,<br>
and tore the world asunder</p>
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr">
<p>Damien Gardner Jnr<br>VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust<br><a href="mailto:rendrag@rendrag.net" target="_blank">rendrag@rendrag.net</a> - <span><a href="http://www.rendrag.net/" target="_blank">http://www.rendrag.net/</a><u><br>
</u></span>--<br>We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br> We ran to the sounds of thunder.<br>We danced among the lightning bolts,<br> and tore the world asunder</p></div>
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