[AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT

Wed Sep 3 23:14:29 EST 2014

Maybe it has been bourne from years of dealing with problems like this that
long ago I decided I'd never mix registrar and DNS/NS. I had used a few
different combinations, lately (2-3 years) I've switched to cloudflare for
DNS. Both for personal and business needs, I haven't come across any
problems with DNS, and then likewise removing that single point of failure,
I'd not been bitten by some of the recent AU registry 'issues'.

I feel a "one does not simply mix DNS with registry" LOTR meme here ;)

Good luck sorting it all out!

On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Damien Gardner Jnr <rendrag at rendrag.net>
wrote:

> Well if it was *just* dns, it's not really a huge issue..  I was more
> thinking where it's a customer's whole hosting, which might be more like
> 30-40gb of emails, web, database, etc..  That does cost to have sitting
> there doing nothing.. :)
>
>
> On 3 September 2014 17:57, Chard, Alex (REA-SYD) <
> Alex.Chard at reed-elsevier.com.au> wrote:
>
>>  Yes, I do understand this point.. but for DNS in particular, how much
>> extra does it cost you to maintain that zone?
>> I would have thought its cheap enough that you can afford to not clean-up
>> for say 3 months and not notice (or even be able to quantify) the impact to
>> your bottom line.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Damien Gardner Jnr [mailto:rendrag at rendrag.net]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 3 September 2014 1:17 PM
>> *To:* Chard, Alex (REA-SYD)
>> *Cc:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>>
>>
>>
>> As much as I disagree with removing a zone as soon as a customer changes
>> their delegation, I can kinda see where they're coming from.
>>
>>
>>
>> The amount of times I've had a customer get to 2-3 months past due on an
>> invoice (Ok, that doesn't happen anymore, I got jack of it, and accounts
>> get suspended 14 days past due, and accounts terminated and all data
>> deleted a further 14 days later), and when you finally get onto them to let
>> them know you're going to debt collection, and they come back with a 'Oh,
>> but we moved away from you four months ago!  Why would we pay you?' is
>> really quite disturbing.   Customers just don't understand that if the
>> general internet sees it as going to another Host, that it's still costing
>> the old Host money to have sitting there (without starting an argument
>> about separating authoritative and recursive DNS on the network).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3 September 2014 13:08, Chard, Alex (REA-SYD) <
>> Alex.Chard at reed-elsevier.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>  Seems to me the correct way to solve this issue would be to charge a
>> (small) fee for the DNS hosting.
>>
>> That way, customers will be aware that they have a DNS zone on your DNS
>> servers (via their bill), and have some incentive to clean up if they
>> delegate away.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you do end up with zones that are not delegated to your DNS servers…
>> doesn’t matter, you’re being paid to host them.
>>
>>
>>
>> To the actual issue here… can you tell the DNS host that you wish to use
>> them as a secondary/tertiary DNS host until your migration is complete?
>>
>>
>>
>> From what I’ve seen, MelbourneIt have gone downhill over the last few
>> years. We have almost entirely migrated away from their registrar services
>> since they sold their corporate arm to CSC because of poor service.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Alex Chard
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *
>> Tony
>>
>>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 3 September 2014 11:02 AM
>> *To:* Joseph Goldman; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>>
>>
>>
>> So let me play devils advocate here, what would you like them to do ?
>>
>>
>>
>> The way I see it they (Melb IT) have two options:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. You delegate the hosting to other NS, they drop the zone from their NS
>> (which is what has been said below, how it happens NOW)
>>
>> 2. They keep the zone active on their NS while you set it up at another
>> provider and then at some later point in time you/they have to remove it
>> from their NS
>>
>>
>>
>> I think we'd all agree that it's pointless (and bad form) to have zones
>> kicking around on your NS that are not delegated to that NS. It's untidy
>> and worse case is it will produce false replies for anyone that happens to
>> try and lookup something from that zone from the 'old' NS.
>>
>>
>>
>> So if they were to go with the 2nd option they run the risk that this
>> will happen, old/stale zones that are no longer delegated to Melb IT NS,
>> but still exist on them. The only way to avoid these stale zones would be
>> to either:
>>
>>
>>
>> i). Rely on customer to delete them (or create a ticket to say migration
>> was complete and they can now be deleted).
>>
>> ii). Have some sort of script that runs on a daily/weekly basis and
>> compares zones delegated to zones that exist on NS and delete any zones
>> that are no longer delegated to Melb IT NS.
>>
>>
>>
>> We all know that relying on customers to do anything is fraught with
>> problems. If you want it done, you need to do it yourself. Also remember
>> that a good proportion of Melb IT customers may not be so DNS literate.
>>
>>
>>
>> If they scripted it, you just increase your work load, have potential for
>> problem and still potentially have people who would complain because the
>> script ran at 2300 Friday and they had started the redelegation process at
>> 2200 Friday (ie. 1 hour before script start) and so they still wanted the
>> domain to stay on the old NS for another few days (of course you could
>> mitigate against this by checking each day and flagging stuff as "to be
>> deleted" then leaving it for a few more days before it actually gets
>> deleted, but really how far do you take this !)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It's a bit of a hard line, but I can see where they are coming from. It
>> hopefully produces the most consistent result for all at the end of the day
>> and saves them wasting resources. You're no longer wishing to use their NS,
>> why should the zone continue to exist on their NS ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At least now that you know about it, you can factor it into your
>> migration process.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Tony.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Joseph Goldman <joe at apcs.com.au>
>> *To:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:54 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>>
>>
>> Yikes thats harsh.
>>
>> See if you can set your TTL's down real low for the important records
>> (A, MX etc) wait a day or 2 then do it - at least hopefully then the
>> world is aware of low TTL and the time from them removing from their
>> NS's to servers checking your new ones should be quick.
>>
>> On 03/09/14 09:50, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:
>> > Yep that was my thought.
>> >
>> > So I have setup my master DNS, setup my secondary, tested against their
>> NS.
>> >
>> > Went to the Melbourne IT site.
>> > Went to re delegate... then it says you can't, you have to un manage it
>> from MelbourneIT and it has to be done first.
>> >
>> > Basically it deletes it from their NS servers, happens almost
>> immediately, I checked against their NS servers.
>> >
>> > I have a few domains that I am looking at moving over... So this is
>> going to be a painful task.
>> >
>> > Alex
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Jonathan Thorpe [mailto:jthorpe at Conexim.com.au]
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:43 AM
>> >> To: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>> >> Subject: RE: Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>> >>
>> >> Hi Alex,
>> >>
>> >> That doesn't sound right to me.
>> >>
>> >> The domain delegation and authoritative DNS are usually handled
>> >> independently.
>> >>
>> >> It should be a matter of:
>> >> 1. Set up the DNS records on the new service.
>> >> 2. Re-delegate the domain to the new nameservers.
>> >>
>> >> If you've set up new nameservers with new records already, then you
>> should
>> >> be able to login to the Melbourne IT management console and perform the
>> >> re-delegation yourself.
>> >>
>> >> Once this is done, allow 24-48 hours for the change to propagate (this
>> will
>> >> depend on the TTLs), then cancel the DNS service.
>> >>
>> >> Kind Regards,
>> >> Jonathan Thorpe
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Conexim Australia Pty. Limited | www.conexim.com.au
>> >> Phone: 1300 133 900 | Fax: 1300 851 747 | Direct: 02 8214 5804 Managed
>> >> Hosting Excellence | Australian Government Endorsed Supplier
>> >>
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>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of
>> Alex
>> >> Samad - Yieldbroker
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:34 AM
>> >> To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>> >> Subject: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>> >>
>> >> Hi
>> >>
>> >> So I have decided to move my zone from Melbourne IT.
>> >>
>> >> But there is a hitch, seems like Melbourne IT will delete my zone off
>> their NS
>> >> before they start the root re delegation.
>> >>
>> >> Just spent a 10-15 min talking to their support (24x7), which is
>> really only 10-5.
>> >>
>> >> I remember before, you just went to a web site with your zone key made
>> >> the NS changes and off you go. Takes 24-48 hours for it to propagate
>> >> depending on TTL's.  Now that function seems to be with the registrars
>> and
>> >> Melbourne IT don't want to play nice.
>> >>
>> >> Seems to be like they are just making it hard to move off melbIT...
>> >>
>> >> A
>> >>
>> >>
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>>
>>
>>
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>> --
>>
>> Damien Gardner Jnr
>> VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust
>> rendrag at rendrag.net -  http://www.rendrag.net/
>> --
>> We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
>>  We ran to the sounds of thunder.
>> We danced among the lightning bolts,
>>  and tore the world asunder
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>
>
> --
>
> Damien Gardner Jnr
> VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust
> rendrag at rendrag.net -  http://www.rendrag.net/
> --
> We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
>  We ran to the sounds of thunder.
> We danced among the lightning bolts,
>  and tore the world asunder
>
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