[AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT

Wed Sep 3 17:57:46 EST 2014

Yes, I do understand this point.. but for DNS in particular, how much extra does it cost you to maintain that zone?
I would have thought its cheap enough that you can afford to not clean-up for say 3 months and not notice (or even be able to quantify) the impact to your bottom line.

--Alex

From: Damien Gardner Jnr [mailto:rendrag at rendrag.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 1:17 PM
To: Chard, Alex (REA-SYD)
Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT

As much as I disagree with removing a zone as soon as a customer changes their delegation, I can kinda see where they're coming from.

The amount of times I've had a customer get to 2-3 months past due on an invoice (Ok, that doesn't happen anymore, I got jack of it, and accounts get suspended 14 days past due, and accounts terminated and all data deleted a further 14 days later), and when you finally get onto them to let them know you're going to debt collection, and they come back with a 'Oh, but we moved away from you four months ago!  Why would we pay you?' is really quite disturbing.   Customers just don't understand that if the general internet sees it as going to another Host, that it's still costing the old Host money to have sitting there (without starting an argument about separating authoritative and recursive DNS on the network).

On 3 September 2014 13:08, Chard, Alex (REA-SYD) <Alex.Chard at reed-elsevier.com.au<mailto:Alex.Chard at reed-elsevier.com.au>> wrote:
Seems to me the correct way to solve this issue would be to charge a (small) fee for the DNS hosting.
That way, customers will be aware that they have a DNS zone on your DNS servers (via their bill), and have some incentive to clean up if they delegate away.

If you do end up with zones that are not delegated to your DNS servers… doesn’t matter, you’re being paid to host them.

To the actual issue here… can you tell the DNS host that you wish to use them as a secondary/tertiary DNS host until your migration is complete?

From what I’ve seen, MelbourneIt have gone downhill over the last few years. We have almost entirely migrated away from their registrar services since they sold their corporate arm to CSC because of poor service.

--Alex Chard

From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net>] On Behalf Of Tony

Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 11:02 AM
To: Joseph Goldman; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT

So let me play devils advocate here, what would you like them to do ?

The way I see it they (Melb IT) have two options:

1. You delegate the hosting to other NS, they drop the zone from their NS (which is what has been said below, how it happens NOW)
2. They keep the zone active on their NS while you set it up at another provider and then at some later point in time you/they have to remove it from their NS

I think we'd all agree that it's pointless (and bad form) to have zones kicking around on your NS that are not delegated to that NS. It's untidy and worse case is it will produce false replies for anyone that happens to try and lookup something from that zone from the 'old' NS.

So if they were to go with the 2nd option they run the risk that this will happen, old/stale zones that are no longer delegated to Melb IT NS, but still exist on them. The only way to avoid these stale zones would be to either:

i). Rely on customer to delete them (or create a ticket to say migration was complete and they can now be deleted).
ii). Have some sort of script that runs on a daily/weekly basis and compares zones delegated to zones that exist on NS and delete any zones that are no longer delegated to Melb IT NS.

We all know that relying on customers to do anything is fraught with problems. If you want it done, you need to do it yourself. Also remember that a good proportion of Melb IT customers may not be so DNS literate.

If they scripted it, you just increase your work load, have potential for problem and still potentially have people who would complain because the script ran at 2300 Friday and they had started the redelegation process at 2200 Friday (ie. 1 hour before script start) and so they still wanted the domain to stay on the old NS for another few days (of course you could mitigate against this by checking each day and flagging stuff as "to be deleted" then leaving it for a few more days before it actually gets deleted, but really how far do you take this !)

It's a bit of a hard line, but I can see where they are coming from. It hopefully produces the most consistent result for all at the end of the day and saves them wasting resources. You're no longer wishing to use their NS, why should the zone continue to exist on their NS ?

At least now that you know about it, you can factor it into your migration process.

regards,
Tony.

________________________________
From: Joseph Goldman <joe at apcs.com.au<mailto:joe at apcs.com.au>>
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT

Yikes thats harsh.

See if you can set your TTL's down real low for the important records
(A, MX etc) wait a day or 2 then do it - at least hopefully then the
world is aware of low TTL and the time from them removing from their
NS's to servers checking your new ones should be quick.

On 03/09/14 09:50, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:
> Yep that was my thought.
>
> So I have setup my master DNS, setup my secondary, tested against their NS.
>
> Went to the Melbourne IT site.
> Went to re delegate... then it says you can't, you have to un manage it from MelbourneIT and it has to be done first.
>
> Basically it deletes it from their NS servers, happens almost immediately, I checked against their NS servers.
>
> I have a few domains that I am looking at moving over... So this is going to be a painful task.
>
> Alex
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jonathan Thorpe [mailto:jthorpe at Conexim.com.au<mailto:jthorpe at Conexim.com.au>]
>> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:43 AM
>> To: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
>> Subject: RE: Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>>
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> That doesn't sound right to me.
>>
>> The domain delegation and authoritative DNS are usually handled
>> independently.
>>
>> It should be a matter of:
>> 1. Set up the DNS records on the new service.
>> 2. Re-delegate the domain to the new nameservers.
>>
>> If you've set up new nameservers with new records already, then you should
>> be able to login to the Melbourne IT management console and perform the
>> re-delegation yourself.
>>
>> Once this is done, allow 24-48 hours for the change to propagate (this will
>> depend on the TTLs), then cancel the DNS service.
>>
>> Kind Regards,
>> Jonathan Thorpe
>>
>> --
>> Conexim Australia Pty. Limited | www.conexim.com.au<http://www.conexim.com.au>
>> Phone: 1300 133 900 | Fax: 1300 851 747 | Direct: 02 8214 5804 Managed
>> Hosting Excellence | Australian Government Endorsed Supplier
>>
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>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net>] On Behalf Of Alex
>> Samad - Yieldbroker
>> Sent: Wednesday, 3 September 2014 9:34 AM
>> To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
>> Subject: [AusNOG] Am I being unreasonable.... MelbourneIT
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> So I have decided to move my zone from Melbourne IT.
>>
>> But there is a hitch, seems like Melbourne IT will delete my zone off their NS
>> before they start the root re delegation.
>>
>> Just spent a 10-15 min talking to their support (24x7), which is really only 10-5.
>>
>> I remember before, you just went to a web site with your zone key made
>> the NS changes and off you go. Takes 24-48 hours for it to propagate
>> depending on TTL's.  Now that function seems to be with the registrars and
>> Melbourne IT don't want to play nice.
>>
>> Seems to be like they are just making it hard to move off melbIT...
>>
>> A
>>
>>
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Damien Gardner Jnr
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