[AusNOG] Trouble with an ex-Customer

Chris Hurley chris at minopher.net.au
Wed May 8 01:27:20 EST 2013 

Skeeve I fully agree with you and hope you have the pockets to follow
through. But in our experience these type of customers even when you get  a
court order just lie and never pay up. The courts are soft when people
whinge ³I¹ve got no money². Mind you own out right an $800k+ house but you
can¹t pay your bill? And the court¹s let them get away with it??? Unless I
spend $20k to bankrupt them and have the house sold under them I¹ll never
get my money. Yes in theory I¹ll get the $20k plus other costs back but I¹m
losing faith in the legal system.




On 7/05/13 8:46 PM, "Jeffrey Sims" <jeffy at tehintartubes.net> wrote:

> Customers going belly up is disappointing and I can see why you want to stick
> to your guns.
> 
> But what is sticking to your guns going to achieve? Other than a legal bill
> that's probably going to rival the debt in your books? If they won't pay that,
> whats the likelihood of them sticking to a judgement for costs? 
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Skeeve Stevens
> <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>> 10k isn't much... but I've had half a dozen customer go belly up in the last
>> few years, and I am sick of people taking advantage of small businesses.
>> 
>> 
>> ...Skeeve
>> 
>> Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>> <http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/>
>> 
>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383
>> <tel:%2B61%20%280%29414%20753%20383>  ; skype://skeeve
>> 
>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks <http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks>  ; 
>> <http://twitter.com/networkceoau> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>> <http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve>  
>> 
>> twitter.com/networkceoau <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>  ;
>> blog: www.network-ceo.net <http://www.network-ceo.net/>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>> 
>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au> wrote:
>>> 10k is peanuts unfortunately. Unless you have that lawyer on a decent
>>> retainer already, it'll cost you at least half that to even fight them let
>>> alone try get the money out of them after this police business is sorted. In
>>> my experience anyway.
>>> 
>>> I'm +1 to a bad customer list, unfortunately people change companies, names,
>>> etc, so even a serial screwer-overer of which my dad has dealt with once or
>>> twice, they just change names again and go into business with another bunch
>>> of people who can be the front-facing names, and you'll not know its the
>>> same messed up guy(s) in the background :(
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:36 PM, Skeeve Stevens
>>> <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>>>> Jeffrey,
>>>> 
>>>> The problem about letting it go and walking away, is that basically tells
>>>> them that what they're doing is acceptable...  someone has to stand up to
>>>> them.
>>>> It is worth $10k to us, but I am not going to let them extend that even
>>>> further... 
>>>> 
>>>> Like RealEstate have a 'bad renters' list, maybe we need to start a bad
>>>> 'customer' list.... because these bastards just go from customer to
>>>> customer screwing small and large businesses.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ...Skeeve
>>>> 
>>>> Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>>> <http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/>
>>>> 
>>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383
>>>> <tel:%2B61%20%280%29414%20753%20383>  ; skype://skeeve
>>>> 
>>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks <http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks>
>>>>  ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>>> <http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve>  
>>>> 
>>>> twitter.com/networkceoau <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>  ;
>>>> blog: www.network-ceo.net <http://www.network-ceo.net/>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>>> 
>>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Jeffrey Sims <jeffy at tehintartubes.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Skeeve,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I ran into a similar small customer who demanded a response where we would
>>>>> come out. But refused to pay invoices for charges and costs incurred. For
>>>>> example this client was near Etihad Stadium in Melbourne. This particular
>>>>> customer often barely rang us, had no on-going maintenance agreement with
>>>>> the company. They only tended to ring us when something went seriously
>>>>> wrong, the crazy thing is, this business, inherited all the equipment
>>>>> (including AD Schema, usernames, printer names) from the previous owner
>>>>> and never wanted to change it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The problem with their location, the most parking for free or on the
>>>>> street for a few dollars was 30 minutes, I myself and another technician
>>>>> who attended to the customer said, we're happy to deal with street parking
>>>>> for small jobs, but most of the work you request needs more than 30
>>>>> minutes and we'd have to park under the stadium (which was like $30 for
>>>>> 2-3 hours) which would be on-charged in the next invoice (with no mark
>>>>> up).
>>>>> 
>>>>> This client had their internet changed over, the provider shipped them a
>>>>> router and just plugged it in. This changed IP address structures and
>>>>> broke everything. We had no documentation as they had changed the other
>>>>> router themselves and all the IP's were different/wrong etc. It took me a
>>>>> good 3 hours to untangle everything, get the ISP connection (Which was one
>>>>> of those god horrible in-building ISP in a box style setups) and leave.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well this client rang back claiming nothing worked (Even though everything
>>>>> he had was inherited by him and he told us/shared with us nothing). He
>>>>> then went on the war path refusing to pay invoices etc. We ultimately gave
>>>>> him what we knew, and simply walked away. He then came back to us weeks
>>>>> later wanting our services which we refused citing the outstanding
>>>>> invoices, he paid those invoices but we said we are no longer in a
>>>>> position to service his needs and to find another service provider.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ultimately, if the cost is wearable, (as much as I know taking on a write
>>>>> off is bad regardless of size), simply give him his data and walk away.
>>>>> Clients who move straight into litigious mode clearly aren't interested
>>>>> and it's just not worth the effort. Imagine how much time and money you've
>>>>> wasted dealing with your lawyer, the police, phone calls, stress etc. It
>>>>> is probably fast catching the debt. I'd give him his details and outsource
>>>>> the debt to a collection agency and let it that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It all sounds too much to be honest.
>>>>> 
>>>>> J
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Skeeve Stevens
>>>>> <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>>>>>> So,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a new one for me.... and I'd like to know what the community
>>>>>> thinks about this situation.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Background first...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We have an ex-client, a micro ISP who has been very hard to deal with
>>>>>> over the time we've been involved with them.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Basically, They've been a customer for over a year, but only on a minimal
>>>>>> basis.  We offered them a higher level of service - even offered to let
>>>>>> them try it out for a couple of weeks for free before signing up to the
>>>>>> new level.  They seemed happy, and at the agreed upon date we asked them
>>>>>> to sign the agreement and can we issue the invoice.  They agreed to the
>>>>>> issuing of the invoice and then we sent the paperwork to them a little
>>>>>> later.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Life goes on for a couple of weeks, and we're getting no response to
>>>>>> questions about the agreement or to overdue notices - while still
>>>>>> delivering them the service.  They request a meeting, and we agree... The
>>>>>> customer has some new staff who were quite arrogant, abusive, and
>>>>>> question everything we've ever done - even though they have no idea about
>>>>>> this industry or how it works.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We don't appreciate being abused, so we say we'd rather not do business
>>>>>> with them anymore and suspend their support services with us the next day
>>>>>> due to the non-payment of their account.  All good and normal.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So a few days later they come at us with legal letters claiming we've
>>>>>> locked them out of some devices - which we haven't - we ceased doing any
>>>>>> work for them immediately.  We explained that we would help them with
>>>>>> whatever they needed - if all they did was pay their overdue invoices.
>>>>>>  They could do anything they needed themselves, but they are just
>>>>>> clueless.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Now, this has been dragging on for a few weeks with letters between
>>>>>> lawyers, with them claiming all sort of bizarre things.  My stance is
>>>>>> that 'without paying their invoice, we're not doing any work for them at
>>>>>> all... no handover, no anything'.  I am not in the habit of being bullied
>>>>>> into doing work for people - nasty letters or not.  They also threatened
>>>>>> they'd gone to the NSW Police Cyber Crime unit... who I called, and they
>>>>>> just basically shrugged their shoulders and said they'd received nothing
>>>>>> yet but will let me know if they do.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Today we informed them that we will be deleting all information that we
>>>>>> hold of theirs in a few days (all documentation, etc).  I don't really
>>>>>> want to put us at any further risk by having access to their information
>>>>>> - whether it is still current or not.  We're completely within our rights
>>>>>> as we have no legal requirements to keep anything for them.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So, an hour or so ago I got a call from my lawyer.  He was contacted by a
>>>>>> detective at the Kings Cross police station.  Apparently they ex-customer
>>>>>> has gone to the cops and made some claims and a detective seemed to think
>>>>>> that their claim may be valid under Section 308E of the NSW Crimes Act
>>>>>> <http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s308e.html>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The reason I am posting here is to draw on the communities experience of
>>>>>> these kinds of things.  I've not heard of the NSW Police getting involved
>>>>>> in these things, especially at the local station level... but it seems
>>>>>> they are.  I think that they are just using the Police to attempt to
>>>>>> intimidate me into doing work for him... but I won't tolerate that.  I am
>>>>>> more than happy to let them arrest me and let the DPP figure out how to
>>>>>> prove their case against me.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Firstly, my lawyer agrees that they can't compel us to do work for them
>>>>>> without paying.  I also believe that under the Act above, that we haven't
>>>>>> "impaired" (by the Act's definition) anything by not giving them any
>>>>>> information or knowledge we have.  The lawyers agree.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My view here is that they are free to go to any consultants anywhere...
>>>>>> hire who they like, but I am not going to be pressured into doing work
>>>>>> for them without them a) paying any unpaid invoices, or b) paying for any
>>>>>> new work they want, such as handover, etc.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This is a frustrating situation as over the time we've been involved with
>>>>>> this customer he has been abusive and used very violent language in his
>>>>>> dramatic outbursts about completely bizarre things (like us expecting him
>>>>>> to read his email).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am sure some will say I shouldn't be discussing this here, but this
>>>>>> bullshit of going to the cops because I won't do work for him without him
>>>>>> paying his bills, is a new depth of stupidness I didn't think even they
>>>>>> would go to. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So I am wondering if anyone else here has had these sort of intimidation
>>>>>> tactics used against them in this sort of context.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you have advice, but want to send it off-list, feel free.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ...Skeeve
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>>>>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>>>>> <http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383
>>>>>> <tel:%2B61%20%280%29414%20753%20383>  ; skype://skeeve
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks <http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks>
>>>>>>  ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>>>>> <http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve>  
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> twitter.com/networkceoau <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>  ;
>>>>>> blog: www.network-ceo.net <http://www.network-ceo.net/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>>>>>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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