[AusNOG] Trouble with an ex-Customer

Tue May 7 20:46:47 EST 2013

Customers going belly up is disappointing and I can see why you want to
stick to your guns.

But what is sticking to your guns going to achieve? Other than a legal bill
that's probably going to rival the debt in your books? If they won't pay
that, whats the likelihood of them sticking to a judgement for costs?

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:

> 10k isn't much... but I've had half a dozen customer go belly up in the
> last few years, and I am sick of people taking advantage of small
> businesses.
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net
>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au>wrote:
>
>> 10k is peanuts unfortunately. Unless you have that lawyer on a decent
>> retainer already, it'll cost you at least half that to even fight them let
>> alone try get the money out of them after this police business is sorted.
>> In my experience anyway.
>>
>> I'm +1 to a bad customer list, unfortunately people change companies,
>> names, etc, so even a serial screwer-overer of which my dad has dealt with
>> once or twice, they just change names again and go into business with
>> another bunch of people who can be the front-facing names, and you'll not
>> know its the same messed up guy(s) in the background :(
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:36 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
>> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Jeffrey,
>>>
>>> The problem about letting it go and walking away, is that basically
>>> tells them that what they're doing is acceptable...  someone has to stand
>>> up to them.
>>>  It is worth $10k to us, but I am not going to let them extend that even
>>> further...
>>>
>>> Like RealEstate have a 'bad renters' list, maybe we need to start a bad
>>> 'customer' list.... because these bastards just go from customer to
>>> customer screwing small and large businesses.
>>>
>>>
>>> ...Skeeve
>>>
>>> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>>
>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>>
>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
>>> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>>
>>> twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net
>>>
>>>
>>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Jeffrey Sims <jeffy at tehintartubes.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Skeeve,
>>>>
>>>> I ran into a similar small customer who demanded a response where we
>>>> would come out. But refused to pay invoices for charges and costs incurred.
>>>> For example this client was near Etihad Stadium in Melbourne. This
>>>> particular customer often barely rang us, had no on-going maintenance
>>>> agreement with the company. They only tended to ring us when something went
>>>> seriously wrong, the crazy thing is, this business, inherited all the
>>>> equipment (including AD Schema, usernames, printer names) from the previous
>>>> owner and never wanted to change it.
>>>>
>>>> The problem with their location, the most parking for free or on the
>>>> street for a few dollars was 30 minutes, I myself and another technician
>>>> who attended to the customer said, we're happy to deal with street parking
>>>> for small jobs, but most of the work you request needs more than 30 minutes
>>>> and we'd have to park under the stadium (which was like $30 for 2-3 hours)
>>>> which would be on-charged in the next invoice (with no mark up).
>>>>
>>>> This client had their internet changed over, the provider shipped them
>>>> a router and just plugged it in. This changed IP address structures and
>>>> broke everything. We had no documentation as they had changed the other
>>>> router themselves and all the IP's were different/wrong etc. It took me a
>>>> good 3 hours to untangle everything, get the ISP connection (Which was one
>>>> of those god horrible in-building ISP in a box style setups) and leave.
>>>>
>>>> Well this client rang back claiming nothing worked (Even though
>>>> everything he had was inherited by him and he told us/shared with us
>>>> nothing). He then went on the war path refusing to pay invoices etc. We
>>>> ultimately gave him what we knew, and simply walked away. He then came back
>>>> to us weeks later wanting our services which we refused citing the
>>>> outstanding invoices, he paid those invoices but we said we are no longer
>>>> in a position to service his needs and to find another service provider.
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately, if the cost is wearable, (as much as I know taking on a
>>>> write off is bad regardless of size), simply give him his data and walk
>>>> away. Clients who move straight into litigious mode clearly aren't
>>>> interested and it's just not worth the effort. Imagine how much time and
>>>> money you've wasted dealing with your lawyer, the police, phone calls,
>>>> stress etc. It is probably fast catching the debt. I'd give him his details
>>>> and outsource the debt to a collection agency and let it that.
>>>>
>>>> It all sounds too much to be honest.
>>>>
>>>> J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
>>>> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a new one for me.... and I'd like to know what the community
>>>>> thinks about this situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Background first...
>>>>>
>>>>> We have an ex-client, a micro ISP who has been very hard to deal with
>>>>> over the time we've been involved with them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically, They've been a customer for over a year, but only on a
>>>>> minimal basis.  We offered them a higher level of service - even offered to
>>>>> let them try it out for a couple of weeks for free before signing up to the
>>>>> new level.  They seemed happy, and at the agreed upon date we asked them to
>>>>> sign the agreement and can we issue the invoice.  They agreed to the
>>>>> issuing of the invoice and then we sent the paperwork to them a little
>>>>> later.
>>>>>
>>>>> Life goes on for a couple of weeks, and we're getting no response to
>>>>> questions about the agreement or to overdue notices - while still
>>>>> delivering them the service.  They request a meeting, and we agree... The
>>>>> customer has some new staff who were quite arrogant, abusive, and question
>>>>> everything we've ever done - even though they have no idea about this
>>>>> industry or how it works.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't appreciate being abused, so we say we'd rather not do
>>>>> business with them anymore and suspend their support services with us the
>>>>> next day due to the non-payment of their account.  All good and normal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So a few days later they come at us with legal letters claiming we've
>>>>> locked them out of some devices - which we haven't - we ceased doing any
>>>>> work for them immediately.  We explained that we would help them with
>>>>> whatever they needed - if all they did was pay their overdue invoices.
>>>>>  They could do anything they needed themselves, but they are just clueless.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, this has been dragging on for a few weeks with letters between
>>>>> lawyers, with them claiming all sort of bizarre things.  My stance is that
>>>>> 'without paying their invoice, we're not doing any work for them at all...
>>>>> no handover, no anything'.  I am not in the habit of being bullied into
>>>>> doing work for people - nasty letters or not.  They also threatened they'd
>>>>> gone to the NSW Police Cyber Crime unit... who I called, and they just
>>>>> basically shrugged their shoulders and said they'd received nothing yet but
>>>>> will let me know if they do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Today we informed them that we will be deleting all information that
>>>>> we hold of theirs in a few days (all documentation, etc).  I don't really
>>>>> want to put us at any further risk by having access to their information -
>>>>> whether it is still current or not.  We're completely within our rights as
>>>>> we have no legal requirements to keep anything for them.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, an hour or so ago I got a call from my lawyer.  He was contacted
>>>>> by a detective at the Kings Cross police station.  Apparently they
>>>>> ex-customer has gone to the cops and made some claims and a detective
>>>>> seemed to think that their claim may be valid under Section 308E of
>>>>> the NSW Crimes Act<http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s308e.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason I am posting here is to draw on the communities experience
>>>>> of these kinds of things.  I've not heard of the NSW Police getting
>>>>> involved in these things, especially at the local station level... but it
>>>>> seems they are.  I think that they are just using the Police to attempt to
>>>>> intimidate me into doing work for him... but I won't tolerate that.  I am
>>>>> more than happy to let them arrest me and let the DPP figure out how to
>>>>> prove their case against me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Firstly, my lawyer agrees that they can't compel us to do work for
>>>>> them without paying.  I also believe that under the Act above, that we
>>>>> haven't "impaired" (by the Act's definition) anything by not giving them
>>>>> any information or knowledge we have.  The lawyers agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> My view here is that they are free to go to any consultants
>>>>> anywhere... hire who they like, but I am not going to be pressured into
>>>>> doing work for them without them a) paying any unpaid invoices, or b)
>>>>> paying for any new work they want, such as handover, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a frustrating situation as over the time we've been involved
>>>>> with this customer he has been abusive and used very violent language in
>>>>> his dramatic outbursts about completely bizarre things (like us expecting
>>>>> him to read his email).
>>>>>
>>>>> I am sure some will say I shouldn't be discussing this here, but this
>>>>> bullshit of going to the cops because I won't do work for him without him
>>>>> paying his bills, is a new depth of stupidness I didn't think even they
>>>>> would go to.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I am wondering if anyone else here has had these sort of
>>>>> intimidation tactics used against them in this sort of context.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have advice, but want to send it off-list, feel free.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ...Skeeve
>>>>>
>>>>> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>>>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>>>>
>>>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
>>>>> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>>>>
>>>>> twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
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