[AusNOG] Trouble with an ex-Customer

Thu May 16 12:28:15 EST 2013

Hi Skeeve,

I agree with both sides of the argument and unfortunately it is a sad state of affairs when lawyers get involved because the only people who win, are the lawyers.

Yes, you can go after the money provided that you don't invest much time and money in recovering said debt because eventually the costs to recover exceed the debt outstanding. If it does exceed the costs it really pisses me off that you sometimes have to let it go just because invariably you won't get it back plus the extra lost income involved in attempting to recover the debt, so in essence, you have lost over 2x the money you are owed. Thus, it's time to let it go and figure out a better way to screw them over. It may take some time but an opportunity will present itself whereby you can royally screw them over and feel pleased that the amount of pain you have just caused them was so worth the money which was owed and hopefully you will get that money back at the same time as an added bonus.

If you want to mitigate such issues in the future then I suggest reviewing your contracts and any disclaimers etc. and make sure they are ironclad to avoid any wiggle room from your clients trying to avoid paying you. Get a good lawyer to review your contracts and verify that everything is in order. A client of mine has an excellent contract and even when appointed administrators come in, they cannot refuse to pay them once they are called in, i.e. no payment? no work/information can be supplied until you do. Tough shit. Once the new contracts are drawn up, be sure to get all clients to sign the new contracts and make sure they have a copy and that you have the paper copy and an electronic copy. If company structure changes and new directors are employed then make sure that the new directors have reviewed the contract and signed off as well. You want to make sure that they cannot find some loophole to slip through and leave you holding the ball.

If you do notice clients taking longer and longer to pay invoices then they should be red flagged immediately and begin tightening the noose to avoid excessive outstanding debt. Have a frank conversation about why it's taking longer to pay invoices and if they are honest about things not going so well for them then let them know that you are willing to help any way which you can and if they can't pay invoices in full then how about part payments. This will avoid losing further cash if things do go down the toilet but also allows you to do what is ethically and morally right. If they are not honest about their business position then shorten their payment terms and stick to them. If it gets bad, then execute the right to terminate their contract (via the agreement within the contract) and send their outstanding debt to a debt collect and move on.

I'm all for a bad company list and especially a bad director list. Invariably, it's the decisions from the directors (or other managers) which dictate how the company is run. It's better to target them rather than just the company. This will help identify the culprits out in the business world and make sure the companies like ours are not taken down with the bad ones because at the end of the day, this is business and we have to look after ourselves whilst looking after our good clients and not the bad clients.

Thought for the day - "Loss Aversion". Look it up, get familiar with it because it will probably help you in the future with matters like these.

Regards,

Mark Stewart

PO Box 486, WANNEROO WA 6946
m: 0438 005 415
e: mark at nabc.com.au<mailto:mark at nabc.com.au>
w: www.nabc.com.au<http://www.nabc.com.au>

From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Sims
Sent: Tuesday, 7 May 2013 6:47 PM
To: Skeeve Stevens
Cc: <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Trouble with an ex-Customer

Customers going belly up is disappointing and I can see why you want to stick to your guns.

But what is sticking to your guns going to achieve? Other than a legal bill that's probably going to rival the debt in your books? If they won't pay that, whats the likelihood of them sticking to a judgement for costs?

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com<mailto:skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>> wrote:
10k isn't much... but I've had half a dozen customer go belly up in the last few years, and I am sick of people taking advantage of small businesses.

...Skeeve

Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com<mailto:skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com> ; www.eintellegonetworks.com<http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/>

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383<tel:%2B61%20%280%29414%20753%20383> ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks<http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks> ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve<http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve>

twitter.com/networkceoau<http://twitter.com/networkceoau> ; blog: www.network-ceo.net<http://www.network-ceo.net/>

The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au<mailto:joshua at railgun.com.au>> wrote:
10k is peanuts unfortunately. Unless you have that lawyer on a decent retainer already, it'll cost you at least half that to even fight them let alone try get the money out of them after this police business is sorted. In my experience anyway.

I'm +1 to a bad customer list, unfortunately people change companies, names, etc, so even a serial screwer-overer of which my dad has dealt with once or twice, they just change names again and go into business with another bunch of people who can be the front-facing names, and you'll not know its the same messed up guy(s) in the background :(

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:36 PM, Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com<mailto:skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>> wrote:
Jeffrey,

The problem about letting it go and walking away, is that basically tells them that what they're doing is acceptable...  someone has to stand up to them.
It is worth $10k to us, but I am not going to let them extend that even further...

Like RealEstate have a 'bad renters' list, maybe we need to start a bad 'customer' list.... because these bastards just go from customer to customer screwing small and large businesses.

...Skeeve

Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com<mailto:skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com> ; www.eintellegonetworks.com<http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/>

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383<tel:%2B61%20%280%29414%20753%20383> ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks<http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks> ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve<http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve>

twitter.com/networkceoau<http://twitter.com/networkceoau> ; blog: www.network-ceo.net<http://www.network-ceo.net/>

The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Jeffrey Sims <jeffy at tehintartubes.net<mailto:jeffy at tehintartubes.net>> wrote:
Skeeve,

I ran into a similar small customer who demanded a response where we would come out. But refused to pay invoices for charges and costs incurred. For example this client was near Etihad Stadium in Melbourne. This particular customer often barely rang us, had no on-going maintenance agreement with the company. They only tended to ring us when something went seriously wrong, the crazy thing is, this business, inherited all the equipment (including AD Schema, usernames, printer names) from the previous owner and never wanted to change it.

The problem with their location, the most parking for free or on the street for a few dollars was 30 minutes, I myself and another technician who attended to the customer said, we're happy to deal with street parking for small jobs, but most of the work you request needs more than 30 minutes and we'd have to park under the stadium (which was like $30 for 2-3 hours) which would be on-charged in the next invoice (with no mark up).

This client had their internet changed over, the provider shipped them a router and just plugged it in. This changed IP address structures and broke everything. We had no documentation as they had changed the other router themselves and all the IP's were different/wrong etc. It took me a good 3 hours to untangle everything, get the ISP connection (Which was one of those god horrible in-building ISP in a box style setups) and leave.

Well this client rang back claiming nothing worked (Even though everything he had was inherited by him and he told us/shared with us nothing). He then went on the war path refusing to pay invoices etc. We ultimately gave him what we knew, and simply walked away. He then came back to us weeks later wanting our services which we refused citing the outstanding invoices, he paid those invoices but we said we are no longer in a position to service his needs and to find another service provider.

Ultimately, if the cost is wearable, (as much as I know taking on a write off is bad regardless of size), simply give him his data and walk away. Clients who move straight into litigious mode clearly aren't interested and it's just not worth the effort. Imagine how much time and money you've wasted dealing with your lawyer, the police, phone calls, stress etc. It is probably fast catching the debt. I'd give him his details and outsource the debt to a collection agency and let it that.

It all sounds too much to be honest.

J

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com<mailto:skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>> wrote:
So,

This is a new one for me.... and I'd like to know what the community thinks about this situation.

Background first...

We have an ex-client, a micro ISP who has been very hard to deal with over the time we've been involved with them.

Basically, They've been a customer for over a year, but only on a minimal basis.  We offered them a higher level of service - even offered to let them try it out for a couple of weeks for free before signing up to the new level.  They seemed happy, and at the agreed upon date we asked them to sign the agreement and can we issue the invoice.  They agreed to the issuing of the invoice and then we sent the paperwork to them a little later.

Life goes on for a couple of weeks, and we're getting no response to questions about the agreement or to overdue notices - while still delivering them the service.  They request a meeting, and we agree... The customer has some new staff who were quite arrogant, abusive, and question everything we've ever done - even though they have no idea about this industry or how it works.

We don't appreciate being abused, so we say we'd rather not do business with them anymore and suspend their support services with us the next day due to the non-payment of their account.  All good and normal.

So a few days later they come at us with legal letters claiming we've locked them out of some devices - which we haven't - we ceased doing any work for them immediately.  We explained that we would help them with whatever they needed - if all they did was pay their overdue invoices.  They could do anything they needed themselves, but they are just clueless.

Now, this has been dragging on for a few weeks with letters between lawyers, with them claiming all sort of bizarre things.  My stance is that 'without paying their invoice, we're not doing any work for them at all... no handover, no anything'.  I am not in the habit of being bullied into doing work for people - nasty letters or not.  They also threatened they'd gone to the NSW Police Cyber Crime unit... who I called, and they just basically shrugged their shoulders and said they'd received nothing yet but will let me know if they do.

Today we informed them that we will be deleting all information that we hold of theirs in a few days (all documentation, etc).  I don't really want to put us at any further risk by having access to their information - whether it is still current or not.  We're completely within our rights as we have no legal requirements to keep anything for them.

So, an hour or so ago I got a call from my lawyer.  He was contacted by a detective at the Kings Cross police station.  Apparently they ex-customer has gone to the cops and made some claims and a detective seemed to think that their claim may be valid under Section 308E of the NSW Crimes Act<http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s308e.html>

The reason I am posting here is to draw on the communities experience of these kinds of things.  I've not heard of the NSW Police getting involved in these things, especially at the local station level... but it seems they are.  I think that they are just using the Police to attempt to intimidate me into doing work for him... but I won't tolerate that.  I am more than happy to let them arrest me and let the DPP figure out how to prove their case against me.

Firstly, my lawyer agrees that they can't compel us to do work for them without paying.  I also believe that under the Act above, that we haven't "impaired" (by the Act's definition) anything by not giving them any information or knowledge we have.  The lawyers agree.

My view here is that they are free to go to any consultants anywhere... hire who they like, but I am not going to be pressured into doing work for them without them a) paying any unpaid invoices, or b) paying for any new work they want, such as handover, etc.

This is a frustrating situation as over the time we've been involved with this customer he has been abusive and used very violent language in his dramatic outbursts about completely bizarre things (like us expecting him to read his email).

I am sure some will say I shouldn't be discussing this here, but this bullshit of going to the cops because I won't do work for him without him paying his bills, is a new depth of stupidness I didn't think even they would go to.

So I am wondering if anyone else here has had these sort of intimidation tactics used against them in this sort of context.

If you have advice, but want to send it off-list, feel free.

...Skeeve

Skeeve Stevens - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com<mailto:skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com> ; www.eintellegonetworks.com<http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/>

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383<tel:%2B61%20%280%29414%20753%20383> ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks<http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks> ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve<http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve>

twitter.com/networkceoau<http://twitter.com/networkceoau> ; blog: www.network-ceo.net<http://www.network-ceo.net/>

The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud

_______________________________________________
AusNOG mailing list
AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net>
http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog

_______________________________________________
AusNOG mailing list
AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net>
http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/attachments/20130516/ccbbab54/attachment.html>