[AusNOG] Trouble with an ex-Customer

Tue May 7 20:43:53 EST 2013

10k isn't much... but I've had half a dozen customer go belly up in the
last few years, and I am sick of people taking advantage of small
businesses.

...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net

The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au>wrote:

> 10k is peanuts unfortunately. Unless you have that lawyer on a decent
> retainer already, it'll cost you at least half that to even fight them let
> alone try get the money out of them after this police business is sorted.
> In my experience anyway.
>
> I'm +1 to a bad customer list, unfortunately people change companies,
> names, etc, so even a serial screwer-overer of which my dad has dealt with
> once or twice, they just change names again and go into business with
> another bunch of people who can be the front-facing names, and you'll not
> know its the same messed up guy(s) in the background :(
>
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:36 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Jeffrey,
>>
>> The problem about letting it go and walking away, is that basically tells
>> them that what they're doing is acceptable...  someone has to stand up to
>> them.
>>  It is worth $10k to us, but I am not going to let them extend that even
>> further...
>>
>> Like RealEstate have a 'bad renters' list, maybe we need to start a bad
>> 'customer' list.... because these bastards just go from customer to
>> customer screwing small and large businesses.
>>
>>
>> ...Skeeve
>>
>> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>
>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>
>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
>> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>
>> twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net
>>
>>
>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:30 PM, Jeffrey Sims <jeffy at tehintartubes.net>wrote:
>>
>>> Skeeve,
>>>
>>> I ran into a similar small customer who demanded a response where we
>>> would come out. But refused to pay invoices for charges and costs incurred.
>>> For example this client was near Etihad Stadium in Melbourne. This
>>> particular customer often barely rang us, had no on-going maintenance
>>> agreement with the company. They only tended to ring us when something went
>>> seriously wrong, the crazy thing is, this business, inherited all the
>>> equipment (including AD Schema, usernames, printer names) from the previous
>>> owner and never wanted to change it.
>>>
>>> The problem with their location, the most parking for free or on the
>>> street for a few dollars was 30 minutes, I myself and another technician
>>> who attended to the customer said, we're happy to deal with street parking
>>> for small jobs, but most of the work you request needs more than 30 minutes
>>> and we'd have to park under the stadium (which was like $30 for 2-3 hours)
>>> which would be on-charged in the next invoice (with no mark up).
>>>
>>> This client had their internet changed over, the provider shipped them a
>>> router and just plugged it in. This changed IP address structures and broke
>>> everything. We had no documentation as they had changed the other router
>>> themselves and all the IP's were different/wrong etc. It took me a good 3
>>> hours to untangle everything, get the ISP connection (Which was one of
>>> those god horrible in-building ISP in a box style setups) and leave.
>>>
>>> Well this client rang back claiming nothing worked (Even though
>>> everything he had was inherited by him and he told us/shared with us
>>> nothing). He then went on the war path refusing to pay invoices etc. We
>>> ultimately gave him what we knew, and simply walked away. He then came back
>>> to us weeks later wanting our services which we refused citing the
>>> outstanding invoices, he paid those invoices but we said we are no longer
>>> in a position to service his needs and to find another service provider.
>>>
>>> Ultimately, if the cost is wearable, (as much as I know taking on a
>>> write off is bad regardless of size), simply give him his data and walk
>>> away. Clients who move straight into litigious mode clearly aren't
>>> interested and it's just not worth the effort. Imagine how much time and
>>> money you've wasted dealing with your lawyer, the police, phone calls,
>>> stress etc. It is probably fast catching the debt. I'd give him his details
>>> and outsource the debt to a collection agency and let it that.
>>>
>>> It all sounds too much to be honest.
>>>
>>> J
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
>>> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So,
>>>>
>>>> This is a new one for me.... and I'd like to know what the community
>>>> thinks about this situation.
>>>>
>>>> Background first...
>>>>
>>>> We have an ex-client, a micro ISP who has been very hard to deal with
>>>> over the time we've been involved with them.
>>>>
>>>> Basically, They've been a customer for over a year, but only on a
>>>> minimal basis.  We offered them a higher level of service - even offered to
>>>> let them try it out for a couple of weeks for free before signing up to the
>>>> new level.  They seemed happy, and at the agreed upon date we asked them to
>>>> sign the agreement and can we issue the invoice.  They agreed to the
>>>> issuing of the invoice and then we sent the paperwork to them a little
>>>> later.
>>>>
>>>> Life goes on for a couple of weeks, and we're getting no response to
>>>> questions about the agreement or to overdue notices - while still
>>>> delivering them the service.  They request a meeting, and we agree... The
>>>> customer has some new staff who were quite arrogant, abusive, and question
>>>> everything we've ever done - even though they have no idea about this
>>>> industry or how it works.
>>>>
>>>> We don't appreciate being abused, so we say we'd rather not do business
>>>> with them anymore and suspend their support services with us the next day
>>>> due to the non-payment of their account.  All good and normal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So a few days later they come at us with legal letters claiming we've
>>>> locked them out of some devices - which we haven't - we ceased doing any
>>>> work for them immediately.  We explained that we would help them with
>>>> whatever they needed - if all they did was pay their overdue invoices.
>>>>  They could do anything they needed themselves, but they are just clueless.
>>>>
>>>> Now, this has been dragging on for a few weeks with letters between
>>>> lawyers, with them claiming all sort of bizarre things.  My stance is that
>>>> 'without paying their invoice, we're not doing any work for them at all...
>>>> no handover, no anything'.  I am not in the habit of being bullied into
>>>> doing work for people - nasty letters or not.  They also threatened they'd
>>>> gone to the NSW Police Cyber Crime unit... who I called, and they just
>>>> basically shrugged their shoulders and said they'd received nothing yet but
>>>> will let me know if they do.
>>>>
>>>> Today we informed them that we will be deleting all information that we
>>>> hold of theirs in a few days (all documentation, etc).  I don't really want
>>>> to put us at any further risk by having access to their information -
>>>> whether it is still current or not.  We're completely within our rights as
>>>> we have no legal requirements to keep anything for them.
>>>>
>>>> So, an hour or so ago I got a call from my lawyer.  He was contacted by
>>>> a detective at the Kings Cross police station.  Apparently they ex-customer
>>>> has gone to the cops and made some claims and a detective seemed to think
>>>> that their claim may be valid under Section 308E of the NSW Crimes Act<http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s308e.html>
>>>>
>>>> The reason I am posting here is to draw on the communities experience
>>>> of these kinds of things.  I've not heard of the NSW Police getting
>>>> involved in these things, especially at the local station level... but it
>>>> seems they are.  I think that they are just using the Police to attempt to
>>>> intimidate me into doing work for him... but I won't tolerate that.  I am
>>>> more than happy to let them arrest me and let the DPP figure out how to
>>>> prove their case against me.
>>>>
>>>> Firstly, my lawyer agrees that they can't compel us to do work for them
>>>> without paying.  I also believe that under the Act above, that we haven't
>>>> "impaired" (by the Act's definition) anything by not giving them any
>>>> information or knowledge we have.  The lawyers agree.
>>>>
>>>> My view here is that they are free to go to any consultants anywhere...
>>>> hire who they like, but I am not going to be pressured into doing work for
>>>> them without them a) paying any unpaid invoices, or b) paying for any new
>>>> work they want, such as handover, etc.
>>>>
>>>> This is a frustrating situation as over the time we've been involved
>>>> with this customer he has been abusive and used very violent language in
>>>> his dramatic outbursts about completely bizarre things (like us expecting
>>>> him to read his email).
>>>>
>>>> I am sure some will say I shouldn't be discussing this here, but this
>>>> bullshit of going to the cops because I won't do work for him without him
>>>> paying his bills, is a new depth of stupidness I didn't think even they
>>>> would go to.
>>>>
>>>> So I am wondering if anyone else here has had these sort of
>>>> intimidation tactics used against them in this sort of context.
>>>>
>>>> If you have advice, but want to send it off-list, feel free.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...Skeeve
>>>>
>>>> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>>>> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>>>>
>>>> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>>>>
>>>> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
>>>> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>>>>
>>>> twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>>>> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> AusNOG mailing list
>>>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>>>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> AusNOG mailing list
>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/attachments/20130507/3fa49515/attachment.html>