[AusNOG] IPv4
Mark Andrews
marka at isc.org
Mon Mar 4 08:18:59 EST 2013
In message <CA324096F289D443A2ECAA48CEA5FD141EAC9022 at AU-SYD-EX-VS1.apac.travele
x.net>, "Van Der Meulen, Mark" writes:
>
> This is not directed to anyone in particular.
>
> =20
>
> Whilst everyone else gets on the "I'm thinking about everyone in the
> rest of the world where they are so underprivileged, and I'm also
> helping your grandmother get IPv6 on her iPad, blah blah" in attempts to
> passive aggressively big note how great they are without sounding self
> centered, I would like to add my perspective. The perspective of the
> white male in his mid twenties who grew up in an affluent country and
> who is for the most part, quite self centered.... (since apparently that
> matters when discussing IPv4 resource policy now)
>
> =20
>
> I'll start off by saying that really the whole " you think you have it
> bad, you should see everyone else in the third world" argument is simply
> evasive behavior. Also, whilst you're pushing how selfless you all are
> in helping others, think on this: If you want to take credit for being
> the persons who have been trying to make the internet a better place
> through your policies regarding IPv4 and IPv6, then you also need to
> take the credit when flack is handed out about your inability to
> properly handle IPv4 resource management, and how the bad decisions that
> you may have been part of are affecting others.
>
> =20
>
> >From this point on in my email, I wish for the "IPv6 is here and IPv4 is
> long gone" argument to remain irrelevant and for those of you who are
> defending APNIC to try look at things a little more objectively. There
> are apparently(according to this rather long email thread) ~16,384 /22's
> left, and to some people that's a lot of IPv4 left - not only that,
> there is a lot of unused/unjustified/unneeded space out there so let's
> talk about that for now.
>
> =20
>
> I work with a number of corporates in banking and finance, and in
> addition to this a number of small ISP's and hosting companies trying to
> get by. Most of the small/medium sized companies I work with are
> providing IPv6 in a dual stack, and for the most part are limited to
> their /22 or less, which they have received in the past 1-3 years. On
> the other hand working with the larger companies, I see absolutely no
> intention whatsoever of moving to IPv6. They purely run IPv4
> environments and show blatant disregard for the amount of IPv4 resources
> they consume through their various legal entities. Generally, this is
> because of a number of reasons:
>
> =20
>
> a) They simply don't care. They have far more address space than
> they need, and they have "better things" to do with their time than
> manage a migration to IPv6.
Which is short sighted as their customers will need to connect to them
over IPv6 when they can't get IPv4 addresses.
> b) They don't understand IPv6, and are concerned about its security
> implications.
And they didn't know about IPv4 either at one stage.
> c) Management would never approve a project to IPv6 as it simply
> isn't in their interest commercially.
It's in everyones long term commercial interest to move to IPv6,
the only question is when. For the most part it didn't require a
project to move to IPv6. It just required buying IPv6 ready stuff.
> d) It is a pain when dealing with compliance.
So's everything.
> e) Why?? Everything works right now, so why make life harder for
> ourselves? We are never going to use all of our allocations.
Because you want to stay in business long term and while you may
have all the IPv4 address you need to talk to the rest of the world,
the rest of the world does not have all the addresses it needs to
talk to you.
> So on one hand I see, large corporate A with more address space than
> required, abusing the system because they can't be bothered(amongst
> other reasons) and it doesn't make commercially sense to. Then I see
> small company B implementing IPv6 but is severely limited ini its growth
> abilities because of the lack of IPv4 available to it - why is this?
> Because if they are selling to consumers, the consumer wants a working,
> no fuss connection that works with everything and with minimal fuss. If
> they don't get the minimal fuss, they can and will take their business
> elsewhere in a twinkling of an eye. If they are selling to businesses,
> then there is a good chance that the business customers have a very
> similar attitude to that of company A, in which case they only want IPv4
> services. So you get the picture, even though they have IPv6, no one
> wants it because they don't care enough about it, and you can't grow a
> business off the back of a product that no one wants.
People want connectivity. They don't care if it is over IPv4 or
IPv6.
B.T.W. IPv6 really is no fuss for consumers. Give them a working
dual stack router and a IPv6 enabled uplink with PD support and you
are basically done on the consumer side. Their IPv6 capable equipment
will us IPv6 when the other end supports IPv6 otherwise it will use
IPv4, their IPv4 only equipment will continue to use IPv4.
For businesses it is still basically the same. You turn on IPv6
and the outbound connections use IPv6 if the other end supports it.
In bound connections continue to use IPv4 until you advertise AAAA
records for the services.
As for IPv6 being a waste of time. Half of my external traffic is
IPv6. Thats 50% less traffic that needs to go through a CGN.
> My point here is that companies who are abusing the system are actually
> making themselves more commercially viable - they are lowering or
> maintaining capital and operating expenditure and for the most part
> making sound commercial decisions. What this means materially for the
> companies not in the same position(quite likely because of timing) is
> that they are forced to adopt a strategy which can potentially make them
> less commercially viable because they are the ones which need to
> increase CAPEX and OPEX, without any real prospect of those investments
> returning profit or increased customer retention.=20
>
> =20
>
> Let me make this very clear, the very same policies that have allowed
> the company which has obtained excessive address space through a
> registries mismanagement to be more commercially viable are the very
> same policies that are limiting the commercial viability of another
> company. I would say that by definition, this makes the policies of the
> registrars anti-competitive in nature.
>
> =20
>
> Is it the problem of the small/medium/large business that the address
> space was previously mismanaged? Is it to something to do with their
> margins or their own lack of planning? Absolutely not, they are
> generally making an effort at their own expense to implement other
> solutions, when often times companies who are abusing the system clearly
> are not attempting to implement other solutions, and the fact that a
> company may or may not have the margins to buy more space on the open
> market is largely irrelevant, they need to be given an equal opportunity
> to grow - just like a company buying new IPv4 resources or a corporate
> who already owns lots of IPv4 resources is given or has been given that
> opportunity.
>
> =20
>
> At the end of the day APNIC and the other registrars were around long
> before many of these companies started doing business and long before
> many of these companies even knew what an IP Address was and how it
> affected their business model. They have been responsible for the
> allocation of address space for quite some time and hence these
> registrars must take full responsibility for their lack of judgment and
> lack of ability to properly administer allocations - they are being paid
> to have the very foresight that they have proved they never had(and I'm
> not talking about 20 years ago, I'm talking about in the last 5 years).
> The new/middle aged companies trying grow are simply casualties of a
> poorly designed and executed set of policies, IPv6 won't fix it for them
> now and they likely won't be viable long enough for it to fix it for
> them later. Higher margins/CGNAT/etc are not solutions that will provide
> long term fixes, and are not solutions commercially competitive enough
> to find a place in a business plan.
>
> =20
>
> This is my point, as an outside observer of how the APNIC policy
> influences the Australian market that I work in, I have good reason to
> believe that the APNIC policies are cultivating anti-competitive
> environments. Due to the very nature of the beast in that those who
> govern it are also those who benefit from it, I don't believe it will
> change or can change.
>
> =20
>
> Full Disclosure: I very recently applied for IP space through APNIC for
> one of the smaller companies I work with who will very likely run out of
> space within 6 months of having an allocation, so I am biased(quite
> clearly, given the above email!)
>
> Full Disclosure: I run IPv6 at home and everywhere I can, so please
> don't try discredit me because you found someone I work with who doesn't
> run IPv6 - it's poor form and proved you have no interest in correcting
> bad policies.
>
> Full Disclosure: My grammar is pretty average, even for an engineer.
> Sorry if this hurt your eyes.
>
> =20
>
> Lastly, I'm young and feel empowered by voicing my opinion on matters I
> have only have half the picture on. So ignore me as you wish.
>
> =20
>
> Mark
>
> =20
>
> =20
>
> From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
> [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Jared Hirst
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:20 PM
> To: Skeeve Stevens
> Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
>
> =20
>
> I don't outsource, I'm there making a difference by direct employment,
> creating jobs, giving opportunities and teaching about the networks we
> run here such as v6 etc, they are not aware if v6 yet and I think that's
> more important than anything to educate them right? You've been saying
> all day v4 is dead.
>
> =20
>
> You did have a go directly at me, you raved on how good you were by
> employing 7 staff offshore and then asked me what I was doing. I never
> accused you of not doing anything for a developing world did I??
>
> =20
>
> Unfortunately I'm not even going to waste my time reply to the rest of
> your email, clearly you have not read any of mine properly otherwise you
> would have seen that at no point was I asking or implying that anything
> was about 'me me me' ill say it again, I can afford the space if I need
> to buy it, not once have I said I wanted the low rate for me or
> anything. I merely stated that the low price in AU will be abused. Again
> get your facts right before commenting.
>
> =20
>
>
> Regards,
>
> =20
>
> Jared Hirst
>
> Servers Australia Pty Ltd
>
> Phone: 1300 788 862
>
> Direct: (02) 4307 4205
>
> E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au
>
>
> On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>
> Jared,
>
> =20
>
> My point was not what you do or don't do... but your attitude is
> screaming 'me me me'. Lots of people here use outsourced staff from
> developing nations (it's not called Third World anymore), so it is
> nothing amazing. You pay people to do a job. Sure, they might live well,
> but what are you doing to change India itself? What are you doing to
> change the future and make things better?
>
> =20
>
> I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in India... I
> know quite reasonably what is going on over there... and so do other
> people who have invested the time, like James Spenceley who has a tonne
> of dealing with them, especially over the last couple of years in their
> fight to setup their own IN-NIC.
>
> =20
>
> I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to affect
> change overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the developing
> world, when nothing is further from the truth.
>
> =20
>
> I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and that the
> lower APNIC fees will help them... you are only talking about yourself,
> and how you are affected and that one of the solutions should be that
> fees are raised.
>
> =20
>
> I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for anyone
> who can't get past their own self and needs and think about the wider
> community. Those who can't see that policies affect everyone
> differently, and that the 'needs of the many', often outweigh the needs
> of the entitled few.
>
> =20
>
> My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resources Policy
> is that I don't really care what rich entitled nations like Australia
> need right now. I care about developing nations where the lives of
> hundreds of millions will be affected over the next few years of massive
> internet growth.
>
> =20
>
> If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG Policy,
> you better come with a perspective of what is best for the whole
> community - just just your little corner. If you don't, you will
> experience dozens of nations who will come back at you with force.
>
> =20
>
> To clarify. I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyone else
> isn't doing enough to help the world in any way. Mine is a calling...
> something that blends my skills, beliefs and life aims.. It isn't for
> everyone. What annoys me is when people only seem to argue for
> themselves without considering those who are far far less fortunate.
> =09
>
> =09
> ...Skeeve
>
> =20
>
> Skeeve Stevens -eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com
> <http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/>=20
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks;linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net
> <http://www.network-ceo.net/>=20
>
> =20
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>
> Juniper - Cisco- Cloud
>
> =20
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst <
> jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:
>
> Skeeve,
>
> I have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my
> outsourcing company (astraeanetworks.com), a THIRD world country, how
> dare you judge me based on not even knowing me. So I should say WHAT THE
> HELL ARE YOU DOING?? You only have 7 staff.I have 30, pick up your game?
>
> I like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting
> management and many many other things that the western wordd has and
> they they can only dream of ever learning. I have sent them equipment
> and also pay DOUBLE the average wage so that their family can eat and
> sleep at night. I also provide a nice office as I am sure you have seen
> on my facebook, I provide them with training, trips to Aus and materials
> that they will NEVER get from anyone in their country. Is that enough to
> satisfy you?
>
> India has a truck load of IPs and I know this first hand because
> I have a standard business DSL in my apartment there (yes I go there
> every 3 months to see them, train them and give them help and
> assistance) and it came with a standard allocation of a /28, so again
> mis-allocation and training is causing the shortage. They are NOT aware
> of the shortage and even worse they were not aware of IPv6 till we got
> there and provided training and equipment for v6.. So keep your smart
> arse comments to yourself, I have said the WHOLE TIME I am not fighting
> for me, I can afford space if I need it. I am fighting for the likes of
> SMALL business that make up a massive portion of Australias businesses
> and ISPs, those are the ones that cannot afford to just go and pay $10
> -$16 / IP and I am saying that it would be good IF they could get from
> APNIC.
>
> I am truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way
> and done it on a public list, I now know why so many people dont post
> here, its like being thrown into a den of tigers. You should be ashamed
> mate. Next time read my past emails and get the story right before
> having a go at someone.
>
> From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:
> ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Skeeve Stevens
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM
> To: Joshua D'Alton
> Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
>
> Because, like most people, he is thinking only about himself and
> how hard done he is being done by.
>
> I far more care about developing nations... look at India. About
> 20 million internet users... and hoping to get to 100 million in the
> next two years. Users in China having to 're-connect' to try and get a
> real IP address. How the hell are they going to make it happen? But do
> you know what... they WILL, and without too much whinging.
>
> This is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat
> when people are starving overseas. Really? Get over yourself and suck it
> up princess.
>
> You have SO much more potential and ability to come up with
> creative and innovative solutions to deal with these situations compared
> to dozens of other countries who are struggling with sub-standard
> infrastructure. You can afford the equipment and expertise they can only
> dream of.
>
> I have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me. They live, learn
> and work on Australia/Western quality networks. I've trained them up to
> be the best engineers in the country. Under my direction, they also
> donate time in Cambodia helping KHNOG get started, help ISOC-KH happen,
> involved in Barcamps, do training for free at schools like Passerelles
> Numeriques (http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/) who train
> orphans and the poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of them!).
> I've shipped dozens of peices of equipment to the country to donate to
> local Cisco training schools and other places. I also allocate my staffs
> time to helping engineers at all the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what
> they do - because they very little options to learn how.
>
> I HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've
> put my effort and my money where my mouth is - What the hell do you do
> Jared? Or for that matter, you Bevan, whose squillions could make a HUGE
> difference... or is there things you've been doing that I don't know? I
> don't have much, but I give a lot... how many people here have a lot and
> don't even give a cent?!
>
> =09
> SERIOUSLY?!
>
> =09
> =09
>
> =09
> ...Skeeve
>
> Skeeve Stevens -eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com
> <http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/>=20
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks;linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net
> <http://www.network-ceo.net/>=20
>
> <~WRD266.jpg>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>
> Juniper - Cisco- Cloud
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton <
> joshua at railgun.com.au> wrote:
>
> It was depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you deserve
> space any more than they do? I'd argue using IPs for cheap VPS etc is
> almost as bad as having the IPs routed but not actually past the
> gateway. In both cases were the cost $10/IP/mo neither business would be
> that wasteful, or they'd just be on v6.
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst <
> jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:
>
> +1 to this!
>
> As I said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago for
> IP space and now I am suffering because others are nesting on it rather
> than handing it back, its a shame that so many people have the attitude
> to just shun people like me that are young, have a successful business
> and did not have the chance to get more space before it was depleted to
> other larger providers or other providers that didnt really need space
> but got it anyway. I was not trying to rant before and people really
> took me out of context and smashed me for no reason, so I am glad
> someone has put it in a nice long email to be clear. Thanks Bevan!
>
> From: Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>
> Date: Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM
> To: Nathan Brookfield <Nathan.Brookfield at simtronic.com.au>
> Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
> Resent-From: Bevan Slattery <bevan.slattery at nextdc.com>
>
> "Basically yes. But get over it."=20
>
> Sorry Skeeve, but that's a disgraceful attitude. Many on this
> list seems to think "we're so freakin' smart we went ahead and gorged
> ourselves on IP addresses to the detriment of the global community and
> now we are making a motza from it. Sucks to be you for not seeing this
> coming".
>
> Well here's the news flash everyone who thinks themselves soooo
> clever and smug are frankly obtuse and their level of arrogance disgusts
> me. You think everyone without IPv4 space has only themselves to blame
> remarks that seem to be coming from middle aged people working for
> providers greater than 5 years old in a developed economy who have been
> in the industry for years.
>
> So Skeeve and others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan or
> Somalia and tell them that they have no address space and sucks to be
> them because they were too stupid not to see the IPv4 coming. Disregard
> that it's mainly because they were too busy fighting a war, trying to
> find food for their family or too busy walking kilometres to go to a mud
> hut with a chalk board for a "iPad" 5 years ago.
>
> Or how about you go visit people in China and India who have
> 2,000,000,000 people trying to lift themselves out of some of the lowest
> wages ever and despite being so desperate to get connected to the
> internet to find their way to "freedom" and information yes freedom and
> information you know that thing the internet provides (?) and let them
> know they've despite having 1/3 of the worlds population you're getting
> shafted because the Shinhwa news agency didn't let them know there was
> an IPv4 crunch coming. Dare you to put an ad in the paper and invite all
> those Chinese people to who can't connect to come down the "the square"
> to talk to you about why they can't.
>
> While you're at it, go into a tech incubator or anyone who is in
> their late teens/early 20's who dare to do what we do and start an ISP
> and tell them "sucks to be you I've effectively lied my ass off to APNIC
> and the other RIR's to get my hands on a life supply of IPv4 and relied
> on their pathetic IPv4 management systems to starve your hard earned
> start up dollars and your future while I make huge $$ because I have no
> conscience! ".
>
> So the plan seems to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and
> coming countries and developing countries and sell our IP's to them and
> IPv6 isn't going to get traction until they are bleeding out of their
> noses and they die on the floor. Sanctioned extortion effectively. We're
> putting a price on their future and freedom. How smart are we."
>
> The hubris and arrogance here simply disgusts me and even worse,
> those that lied their ass off to steal more addresses than they needed
> are now playing mercenary to the future development of our youth or
> developing countries. What makes it worse It's coming from people who
> are involved in the RIR's and the lack of compassion and disdain being
> displayed is frankly beneath what the internet community is all about.
>
> I expected a lot more from a lot of middle aged people who were
> all young once and were given a chance. Screw your arrogance and hubris.
> Get your head out of your arses and travel the world and see what the
> power and freedom the internet and IPv4 provides at least for the next 5
> years and remember that you too were young once and that the only reason
> your so god-damn smart is because he you managed to fallout of a womans
> uterus in a lucky country.
>
> If you can't read between the lines call me and I'll make it
> very clear how pathetic your attitude is.
>
> [b]
>
> =09
> =09
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>
> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
>
> <div class=3DSection1>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>This is not directed to anyone in particular.<o:p></o:=
> p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Whilst everyone else gets on the “I’m thin=
> king about
> everyone in the rest of the world where they are so underprivileged, and I&=
> #8217;m also
> helping your grandmother get IPv6 on her iPad, blah blah” in attempts=
> to
> passive aggressively big note how great they are without sounding self cent=
> ered,
> I would like to add my perspective. The perspective of the white male in his
> mid twenties who grew up in an affluent country and who is for the most par=
> t,
> quite self centered…. (since apparently that matters when discussing =
> IPv4
> resource policy now)<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I’ll start off by saying that really the whole &=
> #8220; you think
> you have it bad, you should see everyone else in the third world” arg=
> ument is
> simply evasive behavior. Also, whilst you’re pushing how selfless you=
> all are
> in helping others, think on this: If you want to take credit for bein=
> g the
> persons who have been trying to make the internet a better place through yo=
> ur
> policies regarding IPv4 and IPv6, then you also need to take the credit when
> flack is handed out about your inability to properly handle IPv4 resource m=
> anagement,
> and how the bad decisions that you may have been part of are affecting othe=
> rs.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>From this point on in my email, I wish for the “=
> IPv6 is here
> and IPv4 is long gone” argument to remain irrelevant and for those of=
> you who
> are defending APNIC to try look at things a little more objectively. There =
> are
> apparently(according to this rather long email thread) ~16,384 /22’s =
> left, and
> to some people that’s a lot of IPv4 left – not only that, there=
> is a lot of
> unused/unjustified/unneeded space out there so let’s talk about that =
> for now.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I work with a number of corporates in banking and fina=
> nce,
> and in addition to this a number of small ISP’s and hosting companies=
> trying to
> get by. Most of the small/medium sized companies I work with are providing =
> IPv6
> in a dual stack, and for the most part are limited to their /22 or less, wh=
> ich
> they have received in the past 1-3 years. On the other hand working with the
> larger companies, I see absolutely no intention whatsoever of moving to IPv=
> 6. They
> purely run IPv4 environments and show blatant disregard for the amount of I=
> Pv4 resources
> they consume through their various legal entities. Generally, this is becau=
> se
> of a number of reasons:<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
> lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
> style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>a)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
> bsp;
> </span></span><![endif]>They simply don’t care. They have far more ad=
> dress
> space than they need, and they have “better things” to do with =
> their time than
> manage a migration to IPv6.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
> lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
> style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>b)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
> bsp;
> </span></span><![endif]>They don’t understand IPv6, and are concerned=
> about its
> security implications.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
> lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
> style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>c)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
> bsp;
> </span></span><![endif]>Management would never approve a project to IPv6 as=
> it
> simply isn’t in their interest commercially.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
> lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
> style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>d)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
> bsp;
> </span></span><![endif]>It is a pain when dealing with compliance.<o:p></o:=
> p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
> lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span
> style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>e)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&n=
> bsp;
> </span></span><![endif]>Why?? Everything works right now, so why make life
> harder for ourselves? We are never going to use all of our allocations.<o:p=
> ></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>So on one hand I see, large corporate A with more addr=
> ess
> space than required, abusing the system because they can’t be bothere=
> d(amongst
> other reasons) and it doesn’t make commercially sense to. Then I see =
> small
> company B implementing IPv6 but is severely limited ini its growth abilities
> because of the lack of IPv4 available to it – why is this? Because if=
> they are
> selling to consumers, the consumer wants a working, no fuss connection that
> works with everything and with minimal fuss. If they don’t get the mi=
> nimal
> fuss, they can and will take their business elsewhere in a twinkling of an =
> eye.
> If they are selling to businesses, then there is a good chance that the
> business customers have a very similar attitude to that of company A, in wh=
> ich
> case they only want IPv4 services. So you get the picture, even though they
> have IPv6, no one wants it because they don’t care enough about it, a=
> nd you can’t
> grow a business off the back of a product that no one wants.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>My point here is that companies who are abusing the sy=
> stem
> are actually making themselves more commercially viable – they are lo=
> wering or maintaining
> capital and operating expenditure and for the most part making sound commer=
> cial
> decisions. What this means materially for the companies not in the same
> position(quite likely because of timing) is that they are forced to adopt a
> strategy which can potentially make them less commercially viable because t=
> hey
> are the ones which need to increase CAPEX and OPEX, without any real prospe=
> ct
> of those investments returning profit or increased customer retention. <o:p=
> ></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Let me make this very clear, the very same policies th=
> at
> have allowed the company which has obtained excessive address space through=
> a
> registries mismanagement to be more commercially viable are the very same p=
> olicies
> that are limiting the commercial viability of another company. I would say =
> that
> by definition, this makes the policies of the registrars anti-competitive in
> nature.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Is it the problem of the small/medium/large business t=
> hat
> the address space was previously mismanaged? Is it to something to do with
> their margins or their own lack of planning? Absolutely not, they are gener=
> ally
> making an effort at their own expense to implement other solutions, when of=
> ten
> times companies who are abusing the system clearly are not attempting to
> implement other solutions, and the fact that a company may or may not have =
> the
> margins to buy more space on the open market is largely irrelevant, they ne=
> ed
> to be given an equal opportunity to grow - just like a company buying new I=
> Pv4
> resources or a corporate who already owns lots of IPv4 resources is given or
> has been given that opportunity.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>At the end of the day APNIC and the other registrars w=
> ere
> around long before many of these companies started doing business and long
> before many of these companies even knew what an IP Address was and how it
> affected their business model. They have been responsible for the allocatio=
> n of
> address space for quite some time and hence these registrars must take full
> responsibility for their lack of judgment and lack of ability to properly
> administer allocations – they are being paid to have the very foresig=
> ht that
> they have proved they never had(and I’m not talking about 20 years ag=
> o, I’m
> talking about in the last 5 years). The new/middle aged companies trying gr=
> ow
> are simply casualties of a poorly designed and executed set of policies, IP=
> v6 won’t
> fix it for them now and they likely won’t be viable long enough for i=
> t to fix
> it for them later. Higher margins/CGNAT/etc are not solutions that will pro=
> vide
> long term fixes, and are not solutions commercially competitive enough to f=
> ind
> a place in a business plan.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>This is my point, as an outside observer of how the AP=
> NIC
> policy influences the Australian market that I work in, I have good reason =
> to
> believe that the APNIC policies are cultivating anti-competitive environmen=
> ts.
> Due to the very nature of the beast in that those who govern it are also th=
> ose
> who benefit from it, I don’t believe it will change or can change.<o:=
> p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Full Disclosure: I very recently applied for IP space
> through APNIC for one of the smaller companies I work with who will very li=
> kely
> run out of space within 6 months of having an allocation, so I am biased(qu=
> ite
> clearly, given the above email!)<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Full Disclosure: I run IPv6 at home and everywhere I c=
> an, so
> please don’t try discredit me because you found someone I work with w=
> ho doesn’t
> run IPv6 – it’s poor form and proved you have no interest in co=
> rrecting bad
> policies.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Full Disclosure: My grammar is pretty average, even fo=
> r an
> engineer. Sorry if this hurt your eyes.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Lastly, I’m young and feel empowered by voicing =
> my opinion
> on matters I have only have half the picture on. So ignore me as you wish.<=
> span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></=
> span></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-AU style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
> ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
> color:#595959'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-AU style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
> ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
> color:#595959'>Mark</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
> "sans-serif";
> color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
> 0in 0in'>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
> ","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
> ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] <b=
> >On
> Behalf Of </b>Jared Hirst<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:20 PM<br>
> <b>To:</b> Skeeve Stevens<br>
> <b>Cc:</b> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net<br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I don't outsource, I'm there making a difference by di=
> rect
> employment, creating jobs, giving opportunities and teaching about the netw=
> orks
> we run here such as v6 etc, they are not aware if v6 yet and I think that's
> more important than anything to educate them right? You've been saying all =
> day
> v4 is dead.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>You did have a go directly at me, you raved on how goo=
> d you
> were by employing 7 staff offshore and then asked me what I was doing. I ne=
> ver
> accused you of not doing anything for a developing world did I??<o:p></o:p>=
> </p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Unfortunately I'm not even going to waste my time repl=
> y to
> the rest of your email, clearly you have not read any of mine properly
> otherwise you would have seen that at no point was I asking or implying that
> anything was about 'me me me' ill say it again, I can afford the space if I
> need to buy it, not once have I said I wanted the low rate for me or anythi=
> ng.
> I merely stated that the low price in AU will be abused. Again get your fac=
> ts
> right before commenting.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
> Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Jared Hirst<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Servers Australia Pty Ltd<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Phone: 1300 788 862<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Direct: (02) 4307 4205<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>E-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:jared.hirst at serversaustralia=
> .com.au">jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au</a><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
> On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens <<a
> href=3D"mailto:skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com">skeeve+ausnog at eintelle=
> gonetworks.com</a>>
> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>Jared,<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>My point was not what you do or don't do... but your
> attitude is screaming 'me me me'. Lots of people here use outsourced staff =
> from
> developing nations (it's not called Third World anymore), so it is nothing
> amazing. You pay people to do a job. Sure, they might live well, but what a=
> re
> you doing to change India itself? What are you doing to change the future a=
> nd
> make things better?<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in
> India... I know quite reasonably what is going on over there... and so do o=
> ther
> people who have invested the time, like James Spenceley who has a tonne of
> dealing with them, especially over the last couple of years in their fight =
> to
> setup their own IN-NIC.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to
> affect change overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the developing
> world, when nothing is further from the truth.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and th=
> at the
> lower APNIC fees will help them... you are only talking about yourself, and=
> how
> you are affected and that one of the solutions should be that fees are rais=
> ed.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for
> anyone who can't get past their own self and needs and think about the wider
> community. Those who can't see that policies affect everyone differently, a=
> nd
> that the 'needs of the many', often outweigh the needs of the entitled few.=
> <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resourc=
> es
> Policy is that I don't really care what rich entitled nations like Australia
> need right now. I care about developing nations where the lives of hundreds=
> of
> millions will be affected over the next few years of massive internet growt=
> h.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG
> Policy, you better come with a perspective of what is best for the whole
> community - just just your little corner. If you don't, you will experience
> dozens of nations who will come back at you with force.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>To clarify. I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyo=
> ne
> else isn't doing enough to help the world in any way. Mine is a calling...
> something that blends my skills, beliefs and life aims.. It isn't for every=
> one.
> What annoys me is when people only seem to argue for themselves without
> considering those who are far far less fortunate.<br clear=3Dall>
> <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
> ...Skeeve<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibr=
> i","sans-serif"'>Skeeve
> Stevens -</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","=
> sans-serif"'>eintellego
> Networks Pty Ltd</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
> "sans-serif"'><a
> href=3D"mailto:skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com" target=3D"_blank">skeeve at eint=
> ellegonetworks.com</a>;<a
> href=3D"http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.eintelleg=
> onetworks.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753=
> 383
> ;skype://skeeve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a
> href=3D"http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks" target=3D"_blank">facebook.=
> com/eintellegonetworks</a>;<a
> href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target=3D"_blank">linkedin.com/in/sk=
> eeve</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href=3D"http://twitter.com/networkce=
> oau"
> target=3D"_blank">twitter.com/networkceoau</a>; blog:<a
> href=3D"http://www.network-ceo.net/" target=3D"_blank">www.network-ceo.net<=
> /a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0i=
> n'><img
> border=3D0 width=3D100 height=3D100 id=3D"_x0000_i1025" src=3D"cid:~WRD000.=
> jpg"
> alt=3D"Image removed by sender."></span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
> t-family:
> "Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F007F'>The Experts Who The Exper=
> ts
> Call</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
> "sans-serif";
> color:#002060'>Juniper - Cisco- Cloud</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F007F'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal>On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst <<a
> href=3D"mailto:jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au" target=3D"_blank">jared=
> .hirst at serversaustralia.com.au</a>>
> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
> >Skeeve,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
> >I
> have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my outsourcing
> company (<a href=3D"http://astraeanetworks.com" target=3D"_blank">astraeane=
> tworks.com</a>),
> a THIRD world country, how dare you judge me based on not even knowing me. =
> So I
> should say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?? You only have 7 staff.I have 30, p=
> ick
> up your game?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
> >I
> like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting management and ma=
> ny
> many other things that the western wordd has and they they can only dream of
> ever learning. I have sent them equipment and also pay DOUBLE the average w=
> age
> so that their family can eat and sleep at night. I also provide a nice offi=
> ce as
> I am sure you have seen on my facebook, I provide them with training, trips=
> to
> Aus and materials that they will NEVER get from anyone in their country. Is
> that enough to satisfy you?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
> >India
> has a truck load of IPs and I know this first hand because I have a standard
> business DSL in my apartment there (yes I go there every 3 months to see th=
> em,
> train them and give them help and assistance) and it came with a standard
> allocation of a /28, so again mis-allocation and training is causing the
> shortage. They are NOT aware of the shortage and even worse they were not a=
> ware
> of IPv6 till we got there and provided training and equipment for v6.. So k=
> eep
> your smart arse comments to yourself, I have said the WHOLE TIME I am not
> fighting for me, I can afford space if I need it. I am fighting for the lik=
> es
> of SMALL business that make up a massive portion of Australias businesses a=
> nd
> ISPs, those are the ones that cannot afford to just go and pay $10 -$16 / IP
> and I am saying that it would be good IF they could get from APNIC.</span><=
> o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
> >I am
> truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way and done it on a
> public list, I now know why so many people dont post here, its like being
> thrown into a den of tigers. You should be ashamed mate. Next time read my =
> past
> emails and get the story right before having a go at someone.</span><o:p></=
> o:p></p>
>
> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
> 0in 0in'>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><b><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></=
> b><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
> href=3D"mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_blank">ausnog-bo=
> unces at lists.ausnog.net</a>
> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_blank=
> ">ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net</a>]
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Skeeve Stevens<br>
> <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM<br>
> <b>To:</b> Joshua D'Alton<br>
> <b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_blank">Aus=
> NOG at lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] IPv4</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'>Because,
> like most people, he is thinking only about himself and how hard done he is
> being done by.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'>I
> far more care about developing nations... look at India. About 20 million
> internet users... and hoping to get to 100 million in the next two years. U=
> sers
> in China having to 're-connect' to try and get a real IP address. How the h=
> ell
> are they going to make it happen? But do you know what... they WILL, and
> without too much whinging.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'>This
> is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat when people are
> starving overseas. Really? Get over yourself and suck it up princess.<o:p><=
> /o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'>You
> have SO much more potential and ability to come up with creative and innova=
> tive
> solutions to deal with these situations compared to dozens of other countri=
> es
> who are struggling with sub-standard infrastructure. You can afford the
> equipment and expertise they can only dream of.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'>I
> have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me. They live, learn and work on
> Australia/Western quality networks. I've trained them up to be the best
> engineers in the country. Under my direction, they also donate time in Camb=
> odia
> helping KHNOG get started, help ISOC-KH happen, involved in Barcamps, do
> training for free at schools like Passerelles Numeriques (<a
> href=3D"http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/" target=3D"_blank">h=
> ttp://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/</a>)
> who train orphans and the poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of the=
> m!).
> I've shipped dozens of peices of equipment to the country to donate to local
> Cisco training schools and other places. I also allocate my staffs time to
> helping engineers at all the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what they do -
> because they very little options to learn how.<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'>I
> HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've put my effort a=
> nd
> my money where my mouth is - What the hell do you do Jared? Or for that mat=
> ter,
> you Bevan, whose squillions could make a HUGE difference... or is there thi=
> ngs
> you've been doing that I don't know? I don't have much, but I give a lot...=
> how
> many people here have a lot and don't even give a cent?!<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><br>
> SERIOUSLY?!<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><br
> clear=3Dall>
> <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><br>
> ...Skeeve<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><b><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Skeeve Steven=
> s -</span></b><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>eintellego Ne=
> tworks
> Pty Ltd</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a
> href=3D"mailto:skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com" target=3D"_blank">skeeve at eint=
> ellegonetworks.com</a>;<a
> href=3D"http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.eintelleg=
> onetworks.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753=
> 383
> ;skype://skeeve</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a
> href=3D"http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks" target=3D"_blank">facebook.=
> com/eintellegonetworks</a>;<a
> href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target=3D"_blank">linkedin.com/in/sk=
> eeve</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href=3D"http://twitter.com/networkce=
> oau"
> target=3D"_blank">twitter.com/networkceoau</a>; blog:<a
> href=3D"http://www.network-ceo.net/" target=3D"_blank">www.network-ceo.net<=
> /a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0i=
> n'><~WRD266.jpg></span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
> pt;
> font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F007F'>The Experts Who The Exper=
> ts
> Call</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'=
> >Juniper
> - Cisco- Cloud</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'>On
> Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton <<a
> href=3D"mailto:joshua at railgun.com.au" target=3D"_blank">joshua at railgun.com.=
> au</a>>
> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'=
> >It was
> depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you deserve space any more than
> they do? I'd argue using IPs for cheap VPS etc is almost as bad as having t=
> he
> IPs routed but not actually past the gateway. In both cases were the cost
> $10/IP/mo neither business would be that wasteful, or they'd just be on v6.=
> <o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'>On
> Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst <<a
> href=3D"mailto:jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au" target=3D"_blank">jared=
> .hirst at serversaustralia.com.au</a>>
> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
> >+1 to
> this!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
> >As I
> said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago for IP space and now=
> I
> am suffering because others are nesting on it rather than handing it back, =
> its
> a shame that so many people have the attitude to just shun people like me t=
> hat
> are young, have a successful business and did not have the chance to get mo=
> re
> space before it was depleted to other larger providers or other providers t=
> hat
> didnt really need space but got it anyway. I was not trying to rant before =
> and
> people really took me out of context and smashed me for no reason, so I am =
> glad
> someone has put it in a nice long email to be clear. Thanks Bevan!</span><o=
> :p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div>
>
> <div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
> 0in 0in'>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><b><span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From: </span>=
> </b><span
> style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Skeeve Steven=
> s <<a
> href=3D"mailto:skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com" target=3D"_blank">skee=
> ve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com</a>><br>
> <b>Date: </b>Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM<br>
> <b>To: </b>Nathan Brookfield <<a
> href=3D"mailto:Nathan.Brookfield at simtronic.com.au" target=3D"_blank">Nathan=
> .Brookfield at simtronic.com.au</a>><br>
> <b>Cc: </b>"<a href=3D"mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_blan=
> k">ausnog at lists.ausnog.net</a>"
> <<a href=3D"mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_blank">ausnog at lis=
> ts.ausnog.net</a>><br>
> <b>Subject: </b>Re: [AusNOG] IPv4<br>
> <b>Resent-From: </b>Bevan Slattery <<a
> href=3D"mailto:bevan.slattery at nextdc.com" target=3D"_blank">bevan.slattery@=
> nextdc.com</a>></span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>"Basical=
> ly
> yes. But get over it." </span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Sorry Skeeve,=
> but
> that's a disgraceful attitude. Many on this list seems to think "we're=
> so
> freakin' smart we went ahead and gorged ourselves on IP addresses to the
> detriment of the global community and now we are making a motza from it. Su=
> cks
> to be you for not seeing this coming".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Well here's t=
> he
> news flash everyone who thinks themselves soooo clever and smug are frankly
> obtuse and their level of arrogance disgusts me. You think everyone without
> IPv4 space has only themselves to blame remarks that seem to be coming from
> middle aged people working for providers greater than 5 years old in a
> developed economy who have been in the industry for years.</span><o:p></o:p=
> ></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>So Skeeve and
> others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Somalia and tell them that
> they have no address space and sucks to be them because they were too stupid
> not to see the IPv4 coming. Disregard that it's mainly because they were too
> busy fighting a war, trying to find food for their family or too busy walki=
> ng
> kilometres to go to a mud hut with a chalk board for a "iPad" 5 y=
> ears
> ago.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Or how about =
> you go
> visit people in China and India who have 2,000,000,000 people trying to lift
> themselves out of some of the lowest wages ever and despite being so desper=
> ate
> to get connected to the internet to find their way to "freedom" a=
> nd
> information yes freedom and information you know that thing the internet
> provides (?) and let them know they've despite having 1/3 of the worlds
> population you're getting shafted because the Shinhwa news agency didn't let
> them know there was an IPv4 crunch coming. Dare you to put an ad in the pap=
> er
> and invite all those Chinese people to who can't connect to come down the
> "the square" to talk to you about why they can't.</span><o:p></o:=
> p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>While you're =
> at it,
> go into a tech incubator or anyone who is in their late teens/early 20's who
> dare to do what we do and start an ISP and tell them "sucks to be you =
> I've
> effectively lied my ass off to APNIC and the other RIR's to get my hands on=
> a
> life supply of IPv4 and relied on their pathetic IPv4 management systems to
> starve your hard earned start up dollars and your future while I make huge =
> $$
> because I have no conscience! ".</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>So the plan s=
> eems
> to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and coming countries and
> developing countries and sell our IP's to them and IPv6 isn't going to get
> traction until they are bleeding out of their noses and they die on the flo=
> or.
> Sanctioned extortion effectively. We're putting a price on their future and
> freedom. How smart are we."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The hubris and
> arrogance here simply disgusts me and even worse, those that lied their ass=
> off
> to steal more addresses than they needed are now playing mercenary to the
> future development of our youth or developing countries. What makes it worse
> It's coming from people who are involved in the RIR's and the lack of compa=
> ssion
> and disdain being displayed is frankly beneath what the internet community =
> is
> all about.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I expected a =
> lot
> more from a lot of middle aged people who were all young once and were give=
> n a
> chance. Screw your arrogance and hubris. Get your head out of your arses and
> travel the world and see what the power and freedom the internet and IPv4
> provides at least for the next 5 years and remember that you too were young
> once and that the only reason your so god-damn smart is because he you mana=
> ged
> to fallout of a womans uterus in a lucky country.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>If you can't =
> read
> between the lines call me and I'll make it very clear how pathetic your
> attitude is.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
> style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>[b]</span><o:=
> p></o:p></p>
>
> </div>
>
> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
> :auto'><span
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--
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka at isc.org
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