[AusNOG] IPv4

[Joshua D'Alton]

You guys should check out what India is doing re v6 readiness, see TATA
site. Maybe ACCC could help us do the same thing :-)
On Mar 4, 2013 1:22 AM, "Van Der Meulen, Mark" <
Mark.VanDerMeulen at travelex.com.au> wrote:

>  This is not directed to anyone in particular.****
>
> ** **
>
> Whilst everyone else gets on the “I’m thinking about everyone in the rest
> of the world where they are so underprivileged, and I’m also helping your
> grandmother get IPv6 on her iPad, blah blah” in attempts to passive
> aggressively big note how great they are without sounding self centered, I
> would like to add my perspective. The perspective of the white male in his
> mid twenties who grew up in an affluent country and who is for the most
> part, quite self centered…. (since apparently that matters when discussing
> IPv4 resource policy now)****
>
> ** **
>
> I’ll start off by saying that really the whole “ you think you have it
> bad, you should see everyone else in the third world” argument is simply
> evasive behavior. Also, whilst you’re pushing how selfless you all are in
> helping others, think on this:  If you want to take credit for being the
> persons who have been trying to make the internet a better place through
> your policies regarding IPv4 and IPv6, then you also need to take the
> credit when flack is handed out about your inability to properly handle
> IPv4 resource management, and how the bad decisions that you may have been
> part of are affecting others.****
>
> ** **
>
> From this point on in my email, I wish for the “IPv6 is here and IPv4 is
> long gone” argument to remain irrelevant and for those of you who are
> defending APNIC to try look at things a little more objectively. There are
> apparently(according to this rather long email thread) ~16,384 /22’s left,
> and to some people that’s a lot of IPv4 left – not only that, there is a
> lot of unused/unjustified/unneeded space out there so let’s talk about that
> for now.****
>
> ** **
>
> I work with a number of corporates in banking and finance, and in addition
> to this a number of small ISP’s and hosting companies trying to get by.
> Most of the small/medium sized companies I work with are providing IPv6 in
> a dual stack, and for the most part are limited to their /22 or less, which
> they have received in the past 1-3 years. On the other hand working with
> the larger companies, I see absolutely no intention whatsoever of moving to
> IPv6. They purely run IPv4 environments and show blatant disregard for the
> amount of IPv4 resources they consume through their various legal entities.
> Generally, this is because of a number of reasons:****
>
> ** **
>
> **a)      **They simply don’t care. They have far more address space than
> they need, and they have “better things” to do with their time than manage
> a migration to IPv6.****
>
> **b)      **They don’t understand IPv6, and are concerned about its
> security implications.****
>
> **c)       **Management would never approve a project to IPv6 as it
> simply isn’t in their interest commercially.****
>
> **d)      **It is a pain when dealing with compliance.****
>
> **e)      **Why?? Everything works right now, so why make life harder for
> ourselves? We are never going to use all of our allocations.****
>
> ** **
>
> So on one hand I see, large corporate A with more address space than
> required, abusing the system because they can’t be bothered(amongst other
> reasons) and it doesn’t make commercially sense to. Then I see small
> company B implementing IPv6 but is severely limited ini its growth
> abilities because of the lack of IPv4 available to it – why is this?
> Because if they are selling to consumers, the consumer wants a working, no
> fuss connection that works with everything and with minimal fuss. If they
> don’t get the minimal fuss, they can and will take their business elsewhere
> in a twinkling of an eye. If they are selling to businesses, then there is
> a good chance that the business customers have a very similar attitude to
> that of company A, in which case they only want IPv4 services. So you get
> the picture, even though they have IPv6, no one wants it because they don’t
> care enough about it, and you can’t grow a business off the back of a
> product that no one wants.****
>
> ** **
>
> My point here is that companies who are abusing the system are actually
> making themselves more commercially viable – they are lowering or
> maintaining capital and operating expenditure and for the most part making
> sound commercial decisions. What this means materially for the companies
> not in the same position(quite likely because of timing) is that they are
> forced to adopt a strategy which can potentially make them less
> commercially viable because they are the ones which need to increase CAPEX
> and OPEX, without any real prospect of those investments returning profit
> or increased customer retention. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Let me make this very clear, the very same policies that have allowed the
> company which has obtained excessive address space through a registries
> mismanagement to be more commercially viable are the very same policies
> that are limiting the commercial viability of another company. I would say
> that by definition, this makes the policies of the registrars
> anti-competitive in nature.****
>
> ** **
>
> Is it the problem of the small/medium/large business that the address
> space was previously mismanaged? Is it to something to do with their
> margins or their own lack of planning? Absolutely not, they are generally
> making an effort at their own expense to implement other solutions, when
> often times companies who are abusing the system clearly are not attempting
> to implement other solutions, and the fact that a company may or may not
> have the margins to buy more space on the open market is largely
> irrelevant, they need to be given an equal opportunity to grow - just like
> a company buying new IPv4 resources or a corporate who already owns lots of
> IPv4 resources is given or has been given that opportunity.****
>
> ** **
>
> At the end of the day APNIC and the other registrars were around long
> before many of these companies started doing business and long before many
> of these companies even knew what an IP Address was and how it affected
> their business model. They have been responsible for the allocation of
> address space for quite some time and hence these registrars must take full
> responsibility for their lack of judgment and lack of ability to properly
> administer allocations – they are being paid to have the very foresight
> that they have proved they never had(and I’m not talking about 20 years
> ago, I’m talking about in the last 5 years). The new/middle aged companies
> trying grow are simply casualties of a poorly designed and executed set of
> policies, IPv6 won’t fix it for them now and they likely won’t be viable
> long enough for it to fix it for them later. Higher margins/CGNAT/etc are
> not solutions that will provide long term fixes, and are not solutions
> commercially competitive enough to find a place in a business plan.****
>
> ** **
>
> This is my point, as an outside observer of how the APNIC policy
> influences the Australian market that I work in, I have good reason to
> believe that the APNIC policies are cultivating anti-competitive
> environments. Due to the very nature of the beast in that those who govern
> it are also those who benefit from it, I don’t believe it will change or
> can change.****
>
> ** **
>
> Full Disclosure: I very recently applied for IP space through APNIC for
> one of the smaller companies I work with who will very likely run out of
> space within 6 months of having an allocation, so I am biased(quite
> clearly, given the above email!)****
>
> Full Disclosure: I run IPv6 at home and everywhere I can, so please don’t
> try discredit me because you found someone I work with who doesn’t run IPv6
> – it’s poor form and proved you have no interest in correcting bad policies.
> ****
>
> Full Disclosure: My grammar is pretty average, even for an engineer. Sorry
> if this hurt your eyes.****
>
> ** **
>
> Lastly, I’m young and feel empowered by voicing my opinion on matters I
> have only have half the picture on. So ignore me as you wish.****
>
> ** **
>
> Mark****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:
> ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *Jared Hirst
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:20 PM
> *To:* Skeeve Stevens
> *Cc:* AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] IPv4****
>
> ** **
>
> I don't outsource, I'm there making a difference by direct employment,
> creating jobs, giving opportunities and teaching about the networks we run
> here such as v6 etc, they are not aware if v6 yet and I think that's more
> important than anything to educate them right? You've been saying all day
> v4 is dead.****
>
> ** **
>
> You did have a go directly at me, you raved on how good you were by
> employing 7 staff offshore and then asked me what I was doing. I never
> accused you of not doing anything for a developing world did I??****
>
> ** **
>
> Unfortunately I'm not even going to waste my time reply to the rest of
> your email, clearly you have not read any of mine properly otherwise you
> would have seen that at no point was I asking or implying that anything was
> about 'me me me' ill say it again, I can afford the space if I need to buy
> it, not once have I said I wanted the low rate for me or anything. I merely
> stated that the low price in AU will be abused. Again get your facts right
> before commenting.****
>
> ** **
>
>
> Regards,****
>
> ** **
>
> Jared Hirst****
>
> Servers Australia Pty Ltd****
>
> Phone: 1300 788 862****
>
> Direct: (02) 4307 4205****
>
> E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au****
>
>
> On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:****
>
>  Jared,****
>
> ** **
>
> My point was not what you do or don't do... but your attitude is screaming
> 'me me me'. Lots of people here use outsourced staff from developing
> nations (it's not called Third World anymore), so it is nothing amazing.
> You pay people to do a job. Sure, they might live well, but what are you
> doing to change India itself? What are you doing to change the future and
> make things better?****
>
> ** **
>
> I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in India... I know
> quite reasonably what is going on over there... and so do other people who
> have invested the time, like James Spenceley who has a tonne of dealing
> with them, especially over the last couple of years in their fight to setup
> their own IN-NIC.****
>
> ** **
>
> I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to affect change
> overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the developing world, when
> nothing is further from the truth.****
>
> ** **
>
> I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and that the lower APNIC
> fees will help them... you are only talking about yourself, and how you are
> affected and that one of the solutions should be that fees are raised.****
>
> ** **
>
> I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for anyone who can't
> get past their own self and needs and think about the wider community.
> Those who can't see that policies affect everyone differently, and that the
> 'needs of the many', often outweigh the needs of the entitled few.****
>
> ** **
>
> My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resources Policy is that I
> don't really care what rich entitled nations like Australia need right now.
> I care about developing nations where the lives of hundreds of millions
> will be affected over the next few years of massive internet growth.****
>
> ** **
>
> If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG Policy, you better
> come with a perspective of what is best for the whole community - just just
> your little corner. If you don't, you will experience dozens of nations who
> will come back at you with force.****
>
> ** **
>
> To clarify. I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyone else isn't doing
> enough to help the world in any way. Mine is a calling... something that
> blends my skills, beliefs and life aims.. It isn't for everyone. What
> annoys me is when people only seem to argue for themselves without
> considering those who are far far less fortunate.
> ****
>
>
> ...Skeeve****
>
> ** **
>
> *Skeeve Stevens -*eintellego Networks Pty Ltd****
>
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com****
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve****
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks;linkedin.com/in/skeeve****
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net****
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]****
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call****
>
> Juniper - Cisco- Cloud****
>
> ** **
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst <
> jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:****
>
> Skeeve,****
>
> I have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my outsourcing
> company (astraeanetworks.com), a THIRD world country, how dare you judge
> me based on not even knowing me. So I should say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU
> DOING?? You only have 7 staff.I have 30, pick up your game?****
>
> I like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting management and
> many many other things that the western wordd has and they they can only
> dream of ever learning. I have sent them equipment and also pay DOUBLE the
> average wage so that their family can eat and sleep at night. I also
> provide a nice office as I am sure you have seen on my facebook, I provide
> them with training, trips to Aus and materials that they will NEVER get
> from anyone in their country. Is that enough to satisfy you?****
>
> India has a truck load of IPs and I know this first hand because I have a
> standard business DSL in my apartment there (yes I go there every 3 months
> to see them, train them and give them help and assistance) and it came with
> a standard allocation of a /28, so again mis-allocation and training is
> causing the shortage. They are NOT aware of the shortage and even worse
> they were not aware of IPv6 till we got there and provided training and
> equipment for v6.. So keep your smart arse comments to yourself, I have
> said the WHOLE TIME I am not fighting for me, I can afford space if I need
> it. I am fighting for the likes of SMALL business that make up a massive
> portion of Australias businesses and ISPs, those are the ones that cannot
> afford to just go and pay $10 -$16 / IP and I am saying that it would be
> good IF they could get from APNIC.****
>
> I am truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way and done it
> on a public list, I now know why so many people dont post here, its like
> being thrown into a den of tigers. You should be ashamed mate. Next time
> read my past emails and get the story right before having a go at someone.
> ****
>
> *From:* ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:
> ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *Skeeve Stevens
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM
> *To:* Joshua D'Alton
> *Cc:* AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] IPv4****
>
> Because, like most people, he is thinking only about himself and how hard
> done he is being done by.****
>
> I far more care about developing nations... look at India. About 20
> million internet users... and hoping to get to 100 million in the next two
> years. Users in China having to 're-connect' to try and get a real IP
> address. How the hell are they going to make it happen? But do you know
> what... they WILL, and without too much whinging.****
>
> This is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat when people
> are starving overseas. Really? Get over yourself and suck it up princess.*
> ***
>
> You have SO much more potential and ability to come up with creative and
> innovative solutions to deal with these situations compared to dozens of
> other countries who are struggling with sub-standard infrastructure. You
> can afford the equipment and expertise they can only dream of.****
>
> I have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me. They live, learn and work
> on Australia/Western quality networks. I've trained them up to be the best
> engineers in the country. Under my direction, they also donate time in
> Cambodia helping KHNOG get started, help ISOC-KH happen, involved in
> Barcamps, do training for free at schools like Passerelles Numeriques (
> http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/) who train orphans and the
> poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of them!). I've shipped dozens
> of peices of equipment to the country to donate to local Cisco training
> schools and other places. I also allocate my staffs time to helping
> engineers at all the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what they do - because
> they very little options to learn how.****
>
> I HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've put my
> effort and my money where my mouth is - What the hell do you do Jared? Or
> for that matter, you Bevan, whose squillions could make a HUGE
> difference... or is there things you've been doing that I don't know? I
> don't have much, but I give a lot... how many people here have a lot and
> don't even give a cent?!****
>
>
> SERIOUSLY?!****
>
>
> ****
>
>
> ...Skeeve****
>
> *Skeeve Stevens -*eintellego Networks Pty Ltd****
>
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com****
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve****
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks;linkedin.com/in/skeeve****
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net****
>
> <~WRD266.jpg>****
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call****
>
> Juniper - Cisco- Cloud****
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au>
> wrote:****
>
> It was depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you deserve space any
> more than they do? I'd argue using IPs for cheap VPS etc is almost as bad
> as having the IPs routed but not actually past the gateway. In both cases
> were the cost $10/IP/mo neither business would be that wasteful, or they'd
> just be on v6.****
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst <
> jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:****
>
> +1 to this!****
>
> As I said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago for IP space
> and now I am suffering because others are nesting on it rather than handing
> it back, its a shame that so many people have the attitude to just shun
> people like me that are young, have a successful business and did not have
> the chance to get more space before it was depleted to other larger
> providers or other providers that didnt really need space but got it
> anyway. I was not trying to rant before and people really took me out of
> context and smashed me for no reason, so I am glad someone has put it in a
> nice long email to be clear. Thanks Bevan!****
>
> *From: *Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM
> *To: *Nathan Brookfield <Nathan.Brookfield at simtronic.com.au>
> *Cc: *"ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
> *Resent-From: *Bevan Slattery <bevan.slattery at nextdc.com>****
>
> "Basically yes. But get over it." ****
>
> Sorry Skeeve, but that's a disgraceful attitude. Many on this list seems
> to think "we're so freakin' smart we went ahead and gorged ourselves on IP
> addresses to the detriment of the global community and now we are making a
> motza from it. Sucks to be you for not seeing this coming".****
>
> Well here's the news flash everyone who thinks themselves soooo clever and
> smug are frankly obtuse and their level of arrogance disgusts me. You think
> everyone without IPv4 space has only themselves to blame remarks that seem
> to be coming from middle aged people working for providers greater than 5
> years old in a developed economy who have been in the industry for years.*
> ***
>
> So Skeeve and others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Somalia
> and tell them that they have no address space and sucks to be them because
> they were too stupid not to see the IPv4 coming. Disregard that it's mainly
> because they were too busy fighting a war, trying to find food for their
> family or too busy walking kilometres to go to a mud hut with a chalk board
> for a "iPad" 5 years ago.****
>
> Or how about you go visit people in China and India who have 2,000,000,000
> people trying to lift themselves out of some of the lowest wages ever and
> despite being so desperate to get connected to the internet to find their
> way to "freedom" and information yes freedom and information you know that
> thing the internet provides (?) and let them know they've despite having
> 1/3 of the worlds population you're getting shafted because the Shinhwa
> news agency didn't let them know there was an IPv4 crunch coming. Dare you
> to put an ad in the paper and invite all those Chinese people to who can't
> connect to come down the "the square" to talk to you about why they can't.
> ****
>
> While you're at it, go into a tech incubator or anyone who is in their
> late teens/early 20's who dare to do what we do and start an ISP and tell
> them "sucks to be you I've effectively lied my ass off to APNIC and the
> other RIR's to get my hands on a life supply of IPv4 and relied on their
> pathetic IPv4 management systems to starve your hard earned start up
> dollars and your future while I make huge $$ because I have no conscience!
> ".****
>
> So the plan seems to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and coming
> countries and developing countries and sell our IP's to them and IPv6 isn't
> going to get traction until they are bleeding out of their noses and they
> die on the floor. Sanctioned extortion effectively. We're putting a price
> on their future and freedom. How smart are we."****
>
> The hubris and arrogance here simply disgusts me and even worse, those
> that lied their ass off to steal more addresses than they needed are now
> playing mercenary to the future development of our youth or developing
> countries. What makes it worse It's coming from people who are involved in
> the RIR's and the lack of compassion and disdain being displayed is frankly
> beneath what the internet community is all about.****
>
> I expected a lot more from a lot of middle aged people who were all young
> once and were given a chance. Screw your arrogance and hubris. Get your
> head out of your arses and travel the world and see what the power and
> freedom the internet and IPv4 provides at least for the next 5 years and
> remember that you too were young once and that the only reason your so
> god-damn smart is because he you managed to fallout of a womans uterus in a
> lucky country.****
>
> If you can't read between the lines call me and I'll make it very clear
> how pathetic your attitude is.****
>
> [b]****
>
>
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