[AusNOG] IPv4
Noel Butler
noel.butler at ausics.net
Mon Mar 4 09:34:41 EST 2013
Wow, just wow... Can not dispute one thing you've said, well put!
On Mon, 2013-03-04 at 01:21 +1100, Van Der Meulen, Mark wrote:
> This is not directed to anyone in particular.
>
>
>
> Whilst everyone else gets on the “I’m thinking about everyone in the
> rest of the world where they are so underprivileged, and I’m also
> helping your grandmother get IPv6 on her iPad, blah blah” in attempts
> to passive aggressively big note how great they are without sounding
> self centered, I would like to add my perspective. The perspective of
> the white male in his mid twenties who grew up in an affluent country
> and who is for the most part, quite self centered…. (since apparently
> that matters when discussing IPv4 resource policy now)
>
>
>
> I’ll start off by saying that really the whole “ you think you have it
> bad, you should see everyone else in the third world” argument is
> simply evasive behavior. Also, whilst you’re pushing how selfless you
> all are in helping others, think on this: If you want to take credit
> for being the persons who have been trying to make the internet a
> better place through your policies regarding IPv4 and IPv6, then you
> also need to take the credit when flack is handed out about your
> inability to properly handle IPv4 resource management, and how the bad
> decisions that you may have been part of are affecting others.
>
>
>
> From this point on in my email, I wish for the “IPv6 is here and IPv4
> is long gone” argument to remain irrelevant and for those of you who
> are defending APNIC to try look at things a little more objectively.
> There are apparently(according to this rather long email thread)
> ~16,384 /22’s left, and to some people that’s a lot of IPv4 left – not
> only that, there is a lot of unused/unjustified/unneeded space out
> there so let’s talk about that for now.
>
>
>
> I work with a number of corporates in banking and finance, and in
> addition to this a number of small ISP’s and hosting companies trying
> to get by. Most of the small/medium sized companies I work with are
> providing IPv6 in a dual stack, and for the most part are limited to
> their /22 or less, which they have received in the past 1-3 years. On
> the other hand working with the larger companies, I see absolutely no
> intention whatsoever of moving to IPv6. They purely run IPv4
> environments and show blatant disregard for the amount of IPv4
> resources they consume through their various legal entities.
> Generally, this is because of a number of reasons:
>
>
>
> a) They simply don’t care. They have far more address space than
> they need, and they have “better things” to do with their time than
> manage a migration to IPv6.
>
> b) They don’t understand IPv6, and are concerned about its
> security implications.
>
> c) Management would never approve a project to IPv6 as it simply
> isn’t in their interest commercially.
>
> d) It is a pain when dealing with compliance.
>
> e) Why?? Everything works right now, so why make life harder for
> ourselves? We are never going to use all of our allocations.
>
>
>
> So on one hand I see, large corporate A with more address space than
> required, abusing the system because they can’t be bothered(amongst
> other reasons) and it doesn’t make commercially sense to. Then I see
> small company B implementing IPv6 but is severely limited ini its
> growth abilities because of the lack of IPv4 available to it – why is
> this? Because if they are selling to consumers, the consumer wants a
> working, no fuss connection that works with everything and with
> minimal fuss. If they don’t get the minimal fuss, they can and will
> take their business elsewhere in a twinkling of an eye. If they are
> selling to businesses, then there is a good chance that the business
> customers have a very similar attitude to that of company A, in which
> case they only want IPv4 services. So you get the picture, even though
> they have IPv6, no one wants it because they don’t care enough about
> it, and you can’t grow a business off the back of a product that no
> one wants.
>
>
>
> My point here is that companies who are abusing the system are
> actually making themselves more commercially viable – they are
> lowering or maintaining capital and operating expenditure and for the
> most part making sound commercial decisions. What this means
> materially for the companies not in the same position(quite likely
> because of timing) is that they are forced to adopt a strategy which
> can potentially make them less commercially viable because they are
> the ones which need to increase CAPEX and OPEX, without any real
> prospect of those investments returning profit or increased customer
> retention.
>
>
>
> Let me make this very clear, the very same policies that have allowed
> the company which has obtained excessive address space through a
> registries mismanagement to be more commercially viable are the very
> same policies that are limiting the commercial viability of another
> company. I would say that by definition, this makes the policies of
> the registrars anti-competitive in nature.
>
>
>
> Is it the problem of the small/medium/large business that the address
> space was previously mismanaged? Is it to something to do with their
> margins or their own lack of planning? Absolutely not, they are
> generally making an effort at their own expense to implement other
> solutions, when often times companies who are abusing the system
> clearly are not attempting to implement other solutions, and the fact
> that a company may or may not have the margins to buy more space on
> the open market is largely irrelevant, they need to be given an equal
> opportunity to grow - just like a company buying new IPv4 resources or
> a corporate who already owns lots of IPv4 resources is given or has
> been given that opportunity.
>
>
>
> At the end of the day APNIC and the other registrars were around long
> before many of these companies started doing business and long before
> many of these companies even knew what an IP Address was and how it
> affected their business model. They have been responsible for the
> allocation of address space for quite some time and hence these
> registrars must take full responsibility for their lack of judgment
> and lack of ability to properly administer allocations – they are
> being paid to have the very foresight that they have proved they never
> had(and I’m not talking about 20 years ago, I’m talking about in the
> last 5 years). The new/middle aged companies trying grow are simply
> casualties of a poorly designed and executed set of policies, IPv6
> won’t fix it for them now and they likely won’t be viable long enough
> for it to fix it for them later. Higher margins/CGNAT/etc are not
> solutions that will provide long term fixes, and are not solutions
> commercially competitive enough to find a place in a business plan.
>
>
>
> This is my point, as an outside observer of how the APNIC policy
> influences the Australian market that I work in, I have good reason to
> believe that the APNIC policies are cultivating anti-competitive
> environments. Due to the very nature of the beast in that those who
> govern it are also those who benefit from it, I don’t believe it will
> change or can change.
>
>
>
> Full Disclosure: I very recently applied for IP space through APNIC
> for one of the smaller companies I work with who will very likely run
> out of space within 6 months of having an allocation, so I am
> biased(quite clearly, given the above email!)
>
> Full Disclosure: I run IPv6 at home and everywhere I can, so please
> don’t try discredit me because you found someone I work with who
> doesn’t run IPv6 – it’s poor form and proved you have no interest in
> correcting bad policies.
>
> Full Disclosure: My grammar is pretty average, even for an engineer.
> Sorry if this hurt your eyes.
>
>
>
> Lastly, I’m young and feel empowered by voicing my opinion on matters
> I have only have half the picture on. So ignore me as you wish.
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
> [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Jared Hirst
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:20 PM
> To: Skeeve Stevens
> Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't outsource, I'm there making a difference by direct employment,
> creating jobs, giving opportunities and teaching about the networks we
> run here such as v6 etc, they are not aware if v6 yet and I think
> that's more important than anything to educate them right? You've been
> saying all day v4 is dead.
>
>
>
>
>
> You did have a go directly at me, you raved on how good you were by
> employing 7 staff offshore and then asked me what I was doing. I never
> accused you of not doing anything for a developing world did I??
>
>
>
>
>
> Unfortunately I'm not even going to waste my time reply to the rest of
> your email, clearly you have not read any of mine properly otherwise
> you would have seen that at no point was I asking or implying that
> anything was about 'me me me' ill say it again, I can afford the space
> if I need to buy it, not once have I said I wanted the low rate for me
> or anything. I merely stated that the low price in AU will be abused.
> Again get your facts right before commenting.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
>
>
> Jared Hirst
>
>
> Servers Australia Pty Ltd
>
>
> Phone: 1300 788 862
>
>
> Direct: (02) 4307 4205
>
>
> E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au
>
>
>
> On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens <skeeve
> +ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jared,
>
>
>
>
>
> My point was not what you do or don't do... but your attitude
> is screaming 'me me me'. Lots of people here use outsourced
> staff from developing nations (it's not called Third World
> anymore), so it is nothing amazing. You pay people to do a
> job. Sure, they might live well, but what are you doing to
> change India itself? What are you doing to change the future
> and make things better?
>
>
>
>
>
> I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in India...
> I know quite reasonably what is going on over there... and so
> do other people who have invested the time, like James
> Spenceley who has a tonne of dealing with them, especially
> over the last couple of years in their fight to setup their
> own IN-NIC.
>
>
>
>
>
> I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to affect
> change overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the
> developing world, when nothing is further from the truth.
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and that the
> lower APNIC fees will help them... you are only talking about
> yourself, and how you are affected and that one of the
> solutions should be that fees are raised.
>
>
>
>
>
> I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for anyone
> who can't get past their own self and needs and think about
> the wider community. Those who can't see that policies affect
> everyone differently, and that the 'needs of the many', often
> outweigh the needs of the entitled few.
>
>
>
>
>
> My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resources
> Policy is that I don't really care what rich entitled nations
> like Australia need right now. I care about developing nations
> where the lives of hundreds of millions will be affected over
> the next few years of massive internet growth.
>
>
>
>
>
> If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG Policy,
> you better come with a perspective of what is best for the
> whole community - just just your little corner. If you don't,
> you will experience dozens of nations who will come back at
> you with force.
>
>
>
>
>
> To clarify. I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyone else
> isn't doing enough to help the world in any way. Mine is a
> calling... something that blends my skills, beliefs and life
> aims.. It isn't for everyone. What annoys me is when people
> only seem to argue for themselves without considering those
> who are far far less fortunate.
>
>
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
>
>
>
>
> Skeeve Stevens -eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>
>
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks;linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net
>
> Image removed by sender.
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>
>
> Juniper - Cisco- Cloud
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst
> <jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> Skeeve,
>
> I have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my
> outsourcing company (astraeanetworks.com), a THIRD world
> country, how dare you judge me based on not even knowing me.
> So I should say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?? You only have 7
> staff.I have 30, pick up your game?
>
> I like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting
> management and many many other things that the western wordd
> has and they they can only dream of ever learning. I have sent
> them equipment and also pay DOUBLE the average wage so that
> their family can eat and sleep at night. I also provide a nice
> office as I am sure you have seen on my facebook, I provide
> them with training, trips to Aus and materials that they will
> NEVER get from anyone in their country. Is that enough to
> satisfy you?
>
> India has a truck load of IPs and I know this first hand
> because I have a standard business DSL in my apartment there
> (yes I go there every 3 months to see them, train them and
> give them help and assistance) and it came with a standard
> allocation of a /28, so again mis-allocation and training is
> causing the shortage. They are NOT aware of the shortage and
> even worse they were not aware of IPv6 till we got there and
> provided training and equipment for v6.. So keep your smart
> arse comments to yourself, I have said the WHOLE TIME I am not
> fighting for me, I can afford space if I need it. I am
> fighting for the likes of SMALL business that make up a
> massive portion of Australias businesses and ISPs, those are
> the ones that cannot afford to just go and pay $10 -$16 / IP
> and I am saying that it would be good IF they could get from
> APNIC.
>
> I am truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way
> and done it on a public list, I now know why so many people
> dont post here, its like being thrown into a den of tigers.
> You should be ashamed mate. Next time read my past emails and
> get the story right before having a go at someone.
>
>
> From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
> [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Skeeve
> Stevens
> Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM
> To: Joshua D'Alton
> Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
>
>
>
> Because, like most people, he is thinking only about himself
> and how hard done he is being done by.
>
>
> I far more care about developing nations... look at India.
> About 20 million internet users... and hoping to get to 100
> million in the next two years. Users in China having to
> 're-connect' to try and get a real IP address. How the hell
> are they going to make it happen? But do you know what... they
> WILL, and without too much whinging.
>
>
> This is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat
> when people are starving overseas. Really? Get over yourself
> and suck it up princess.
>
>
> You have SO much more potential and ability to come up with
> creative and innovative solutions to deal with these
> situations compared to dozens of other countries who are
> struggling with sub-standard infrastructure. You can afford
> the equipment and expertise they can only dream of.
>
>
> I have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me. They live,
> learn and work on Australia/Western quality networks. I've
> trained them up to be the best engineers in the country. Under
> my direction, they also donate time in Cambodia helping KHNOG
> get started, help ISOC-KH happen, involved in Barcamps, do
> training for free at schools like Passerelles Numeriques
> (http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/) who train
> orphans and the poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of
> them!). I've shipped dozens of peices of equipment to the
> country to donate to local Cisco training schools and other
> places. I also allocate my staffs time to helping engineers at
> all the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what they do - because
> they very little options to learn how.
>
>
> I HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've
> put my effort and my money where my mouth is - What the hell
> do you do Jared? Or for that matter, you Bevan, whose
> squillions could make a HUGE difference... or is there things
> you've been doing that I don't know? I don't have much, but I
> give a lot... how many people here have a lot and don't even
> give a cent?!
>
>
>
> SERIOUSLY?!
>
>
>
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
>
> Skeeve Stevens -eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>
>
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks;linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net
>
> <~WRD266.jpg>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>
>
> Juniper - Cisco- Cloud
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton
> <joshua at railgun.com.au> wrote:
>
> It was depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you
> deserve space any more than they do? I'd argue using IPs for
> cheap VPS etc is almost as bad as having the IPs routed but
> not actually past the gateway. In both cases were the cost
> $10/IP/mo neither business would be that wasteful, or they'd
> just be on v6.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst
> <jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> +1 to this!
>
>
> As I said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago
> for IP space and now I am suffering because others are nesting
> on it rather than handing it back, its a shame that so many
> people have the attitude to just shun people like me that are
> young, have a successful business and did not have the chance
> to get more space before it was depleted to other larger
> providers or other providers that didnt really need space but
> got it anyway. I was not trying to rant before and people
> really took me out of context and smashed me for no reason, so
> I am glad someone has put it in a nice long email to be clear.
> Thanks Bevan!
>
>
> From: Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>
> Date: Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM
> To: Nathan Brookfield <Nathan.Brookfield at simtronic.com.au>
> Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
> Resent-From: Bevan Slattery <bevan.slattery at nextdc.com>
>
>
>
> "Basically yes. But get over it."
>
>
> Sorry Skeeve, but that's a disgraceful attitude. Many on this
> list seems to think "we're so freakin' smart we went ahead and
> gorged ourselves on IP addresses to the detriment of the
> global community and now we are making a motza from it. Sucks
> to be you for not seeing this coming".
>
>
> Well here's the news flash everyone who thinks themselves
> soooo clever and smug are frankly obtuse and their level of
> arrogance disgusts me. You think everyone without IPv4 space
> has only themselves to blame remarks that seem to be coming
> from middle aged people working for providers greater than 5
> years old in a developed economy who have been in the industry
> for years.
>
>
> So Skeeve and others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan
> or Somalia and tell them that they have no address space and
> sucks to be them because they were too stupid not to see the
> IPv4 coming. Disregard that it's mainly because they were too
> busy fighting a war, trying to find food for their family or
> too busy walking kilometres to go to a mud hut with a chalk
> board for a "iPad" 5 years ago.
>
>
> Or how about you go visit people in China and India who have
> 2,000,000,000 people trying to lift themselves out of some of
> the lowest wages ever and despite being so desperate to get
> connected to the internet to find their way to "freedom" and
> information yes freedom and information you know that thing
> the internet provides (?) and let them know they've despite
> having 1/3 of the worlds population you're getting shafted
> because the Shinhwa news agency didn't let them know there was
> an IPv4 crunch coming. Dare you to put an ad in the paper and
> invite all those Chinese people to who can't connect to come
> down the "the square" to talk to you about why they can't.
>
>
> While you're at it, go into a tech incubator or anyone who is
> in their late teens/early 20's who dare to do what we do and
> start an ISP and tell them "sucks to be you I've effectively
> lied my ass off to APNIC and the other RIR's to get my hands
> on a life supply of IPv4 and relied on their pathetic IPv4
> management systems to starve your hard earned start up dollars
> and your future while I make huge $$ because I have no
> conscience! ".
>
>
> So the plan seems to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and
> coming countries and developing countries and sell our IP's to
> them and IPv6 isn't going to get traction until they are
> bleeding out of their noses and they die on the floor.
> Sanctioned extortion effectively. We're putting a price on
> their future and freedom. How smart are we."
>
>
> The hubris and arrogance here simply disgusts me and even
> worse, those that lied their ass off to steal more addresses
> than they needed are now playing mercenary to the future
> development of our youth or developing countries. What makes
> it worse It's coming from people who are involved in the RIR's
> and the lack of compassion and disdain being displayed is
> frankly beneath what the internet community is all about.
>
>
> I expected a lot more from a lot of middle aged people who
> were all young once and were given a chance. Screw your
> arrogance and hubris. Get your head out of your arses and
> travel the world and see what the power and freedom the
> internet and IPv4 provides at least for the next 5 years and
> remember that you too were young once and that the only reason
> your so god-damn smart is because he you managed to fallout of
> a womans uterus in a lucky country.
>
>
> If you can't read between the lines call me and I'll make it
> very clear how pathetic your attitude is.
>
>
> [b]
>
>
>
>
>
> The information contained in this email and any attachments
> may be confidential. This email and any attachments are also
> subject to copyright. No part of them may be reproduced,
> adapted or transmitted without the written permission of the
> copyright owner. If you are not the intended recipient, any
> use, interference with, disclosure or copying of this
> information is unauthorised and prohibited. If you have
> received this email in error, please immediately advise the
> sender by return email and delete the message from your
> system. All email communications to and from NEXTDC Limited
> are recorded for the purposes of archival and storage.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *******************************************************************************
> Travelex - www.travelex.com
>
> Travelex Outsourcing Pty Limited [Currency Select businesss] is a
> limited company registered in Australia with company number: 127 747
> 586.
>
> Information in this email including any attachment ('email') is
> confidential,
> may be privileged and is intended solely for the addressee.
> Unauthorised
> recipients are requested to preserve the confidentiality of this
> email, advise
> the sender immediately of any error in transmission, and then delete
> the email
> from the recipient's mailbox without making copies. Any disclosure,
> copying,
> distribution or action taken, or omitted to be taken, in reliance upon
> the
> contents of this email by unauthorised recipients is prohibited and
> may be
> unlawful.
>
> Please note that no contracts or commitments may be concluded on
> behalf of Travelex Outsourcing Pty Limited [Currency Select businesss]
> or its groups of companies ('Travelex') by means of email, and no
> statement or representation made in this email is binding on
> behalf of Travelex.
>
> DISCLAIMER: Whilst this message has been scanned for viruses,
> Travelex
> disclaims any responsibility or liability for viruses contained
> therein. It is
> therefore recommended that all emails should be scanned for viruses.
> *******************************************************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/attachments/20130304/fd8c62e2/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: ~WRD000.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 823 bytes
Desc: ~WRD000.jpg
URL: <http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/attachments/20130304/fd8c62e2/attachment.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 490 bytes
Desc: This is a digitally signed message part
URL: <http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/attachments/20130304/fd8c62e2/attachment.sig>
More information about the AusNOG
mailing list