[AusNOG] "ISPs agree to graduated warnings for pirates"

Damien Gardner Jnr rendrag at rendrag.net
Mon Feb 23 07:14:42 EST 2015


It's funny, the old 'lend your car so someone can commit murder' gets
trotted out every time this topic comes up.  There's one big difference.
Murder is criminal.  We're talking about assisting in a Civil matter.
Which really makes NO sense to me.  If the Rights Holders didn't have *SO*
much monetary and legal clout available to bring to bear on our Government,
we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

And secondly you're assuming that the average Joe *knows* their visitors
are torrenting.  That's VERY unlikely.  More likely they were of the
understanding that the visitors just wanted to jump onto Steam or
Battle.Net.   (Seriously, who would knowingly let someone jump onto their
network to torrent?  your average torrent user doesn't know enough about
tuning the settings to NOT destroy the home internet connection - or the
home router, given the size of the nat table on the average home CPE)

And the point where your argument completely falls down?  There's a
perfectly good supply of screws here in Australia, and look at that, you
don't see people going into a hardware store to steal them in mass
proportions.  I'm fairly confident that you'll find that if the Rights
Holders join us here in the 21st Century and make their content available
for purchase, at a reasonable fee, and without the uselessness of needing
to be streamed at the time of being watched, you'll find people going 'OH
MY GOD THIS IS SO EASY', and just paying to download the content
automatically.

You know what?, I'd happily pay > $100/month for a service which delivered
ALL the content I require to my fileserver for viewing at my leisure.
Because lets be serious - if you were (hypothetically, of course) to setup
your own reliable newzbin indexer, pay for newsgroup access for yourself,
AND your indexer, and then put the time into managing it all - you're
likely spending close to $100/month for it all anyway.

Although once the NBN finally arrives, and if internet quotas are increased
to something which won't break the bank, we may find that the whole 'at my
leisure' thing isn't such a huge issue, as people will finally have enough
bandwidth to stream in real time).    (Bandwidth is the biggest issue I
have with streaming.  When the kids are watching ABC iView, it totally
destroys the 'net here at home - darn thing auto-detects available
bandwidth, and it's seems to have two rates...  100kbytes/sec, and
600kbytes/sec (!@#!#@!@#!) - when it chooses the latter, no-one else can
use the intarwebz at all)

But now we're completely off-topic, so lets get back on topic before David
pulls out his hammer of god ;)

On 22 February 2015 at 23:05, Eliezer Croitoru <eliezer at ngtech.co.il> wrote:

> Hey Damien,
>
> I would like to point you into some other legal subject which might be
> related to the issue.
>
> Assuming you have a car and you gave it to some friend which have told you
> that he is going to use the car to run over someone, and you gave him the
> car willingly and you made him sign on a contract that he will do with the
> car what he told you he would, who would be responsible for it?
> Who would need to pay the damages, human deaths?
>
> I know that some would put the whole blame on the killer and not the
> accessory but some would go and ask a shrink to validate the killer and the
> friend sanity to make sure they both are sane enough to meet trial.
> And back to kids and kids friends, kids are something you are responsible
> to and in a way OWN!
> Any sane human is responsible for his kids education by law and also is
> responsible for his kids deeds.
> While some would like to say that kids cannot be punished I would say it's
> not the truth and they can be punished by any means of the law while
> considering that the parents or their guardian is responsible for most of
> their actions while there are some actions which might be not inside any
> human hands.
>
> Some would argue about some internet related things and I have heard in
> the past some claims that the Internet is something that one cannot own and
> it's something which cannot be "mangled" or be "altered".
> The fact is that for each internet end point which is represented by an IP
> there is some legal owner which is an adult which can provide answers in a
> case of a question about the connection.
>
> The main question in hands is not if it's allowed or good to steal but in
> what cases it is permitted from couple aspects.
> For example if some organization have windows licenses and the only
> current way to get the installation ISO is throw illegal channels then any
> judge in any place on the planet would allow it to happen in the case MS
> would vanish from earth.
>
> I would try to divert the topic from one subject to another.
> The main subject is illegal copies of materials such as movies and tv
> shows but it applies to any real or virtual asset.
> If we would take a corporation delta which supplies screws and would steal
> his 10GB plan for a really important special design screw, how much legal
> investment would they apply to make sure that the plan would not be
> published?
> Like a screw, a router and or any networking device is a tool which has a
> owner and a responsible entity.
> And the real question about it would be: Who is responsible for the usage
> of the Hammer Of God(a really cool hammer which can break mountains)? The
> user or the creator?
> We can blame the creator of this hammer since he provided the hammer to a
> non responsible client\user!
> An adult is responsible for his kids actions and this world is indeed one
> big "Institute of Mental Health" and anybody in it should be considered a
> victim and needs helps from others here, sane more or less.
>
> I think that the question in hands would not be who is responsible for
> this or that since everybody here is in the same insane world which
> stealing might become an epidemic in it.
> As the world citizen I would first declare a war on stealing things as a
> bad habit of insane users on the internet.
> I would suggest an approach which will include education related actions
> rather then a simple solution which will be considered an applicable real
> world solution.
>
> What parent, entity CEO or Governor would not look at himself in the
> mirror and will not ask himself "What have I done that caused all these
> nice employes of mine to loose their minds?" And what would have prevented
> me to get into this position I am right now in? Would education prevent
> others to become what I see as bad?
> And the answer would not be always prison because some of the subjects
> might be having some mental illness related issues which this insane world
> helped them to develop based on genes or inherited or implanted or any
> other means available to the humans in their world.
>
> Eliezer
>
> On 22/02/2015 04:37, Damien Gardner Jnr wrote:
>
>> It did seem a little one-sided there.  It's all well and fine to say the
>> process on the Rights Holder side must be certified, but there was no
>> documented recourse if it should be found that the Rights Holder was
>> telling furfies.  For example, AFAIAC, should the Rights Holder be found
>> to
>> be making false allegations, the ISP should have the right to blacklist
>> them and never deal with them again.
>>
>> Seems like the Account Holder needs some recourse BEFORE the Final Notice,
>> also.  For example, if the Account Holder is a household with 4 teenagers,
>> AND lots of visiting friends, well, they have no way to tell who may have
>> done it, so there needs to be a way to come back to the ISP and say
>> 'Sorry,
>> this was NOT me, nor was it someone I can identify, so please cancel this
>> notice'.
>>
>
>
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-- 

Damien Gardner Jnr
VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust
rendrag at rendrag.net -  http://www.rendrag.net/
--
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
 We ran to the sounds of thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
 and tore the world asunder
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