[AusNOG] "ISPs agree to graduated warnings for pirates"

Sun Feb 22 13:37:40 EST 2015

It did seem a little one-sided there.  It's all well and fine to say the
process on the Rights Holder side must be certified, but there was no
documented recourse if it should be found that the Rights Holder was
telling furfies.  For example, AFAIAC, should the Rights Holder be found to
be making false allegations, the ISP should have the right to blacklist
them and never deal with them again.

Seems like the Account Holder needs some recourse BEFORE the Final Notice,
also.  For example, if the Account Holder is a household with 4 teenagers,
AND lots of visiting friends, well, they have no way to tell who may have
done it, so there needs to be a way to come back to the ISP and say 'Sorry,
this was NOT me, nor was it someone I can identify, so please cancel this
notice'.

I don't like the requirement for the ISP to send out the Final Notices via
registered post, without there being some way to recoup that cost.
Automated emails are all well and fine.  But once you have to have someone
print, fold, and stuff a letter, walk to the post office, get a tracking
number, and then come back and enter that number into a system, that notice
just cost you $30 to send.  And then later when someone needs to audit that
process because there was a failure in the system (The accounts junior that
walked to the post office mixed up two of the tracking numbers), that
notice then just cost you another $200+ in developer time.

Seems to be putting a LOT of cost and administrative overhead on the ISP's,
for NO benefit to ISP's or the community.  All the benefit is on the Rights
Holders.  Perhaps a $10-20 per processed infringement notice incoming from
the Rights Holders would be a good cost offset for the effort involved?

--DG

On 22 February 2015 at 13:27, Nathanael Bettridge <nathanael at prodigy.com.au>
wrote:

>  Interestingly I couldn’t see on a quick reading anything dealing with if
> the *reports from the rights holders themselves* are bogus or vexatious,
> thereby putting end users in bad standing and costing ISPs money. I’d love
> to see some kind of recourse for knowingly making false allegations or
> knowingly alleging violation without standing. There is in fact the implied
> assumption throughout that the alleged rights violation actually occurred,
> just not necessary by the account holder personally. Surely it should be
> emphasizing that the violation allegation is just an unproven allegation at
> that point and that it *may not have taken place at all*?
>
>
>
> Also interesting that the TIO is specifically excluded from the scheme.
>
>
>
> Finally – what’s the bet that the “education” page that the notices have
> to point at will basically be free advertising for a select group of rights
> holders/distributors? I wonder if CC content will even get a mention in the
> “education” documentation.
>
>
>
> Nathanael Bettridge
> Prodigy Communications Pty Ltd
> Mobile: +61 (0)4 1048 0170
> Office: +61 (0)2 8214 8920
> Fax:    +61 (0)2 9427 4203
> Email:  nathanael at prodigy.com.au
> Web:    www.prodigy.com.au
>
>
>
> *From:* AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *Noel
> Butler
> *Sent:* Sunday, 22 February 2015 12:17
> *To:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] "ISPs agree to graduated warnings for pirates"
>
>
>
> I pretty much agree with everything said here, however, in my skimming,
> did I or did I not read the only end user dispute can occur after they have
> final notice? what dropkick came up with that? anyone accused of anything
> has a right of dispute there and then, if they want to dispute and have
> wiped a 1st or 2nd warning, it is there right to do so at that time.
>
> I think it also needs to be made extremely clear that "all ISP's" should
> be replaced by all comms alliance members - which are a negligible number
> compared to overall alleged 600 or so ISP's, have you 500 customers, or
> 500,000, your input and choice is as equal as any other.
>
>
>
> The fact it specifically excludes wireless forms also places it into the
> joke box.
>
> I dont recall every ISP being asked by comms alliance for input, or even
> if they agree, maybe thats what they are doing now? in that case, the
> response is GAGF, your draft  has a  looooong way to go, its got more holes
> in it that a pallet of swiss cheese.
>
>
>
> On 22/02/2015 07:33, Skeeve Stevens wrote:
>
>  So, the draft code is here:
>
>
>
>
> http://www.commsalliance.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/47570/DR-C653-2015.pdf
>
>
>
> A couple of questions.
>
>
>
> - How does this affect businesses, companies, etc which has many users
> behind their connection.  Universities/Schools, Internet Cafes, corporate
> internet, public wifi, etc - which may or may not have the ability or
> detect what their users are doing.
>
>
>
> What will be the penalties of businesses who can't identify the abuser?
> Will a company be taken down because of a user?
>
>
>
> Based on the definitions an 'Account Holder' is a natural person on
> Residential fixed internet account'.  Does does mean businesses (of any
> size) as end users are exempt?
>
>
>
> Will a family be taken down because of a childs actions? Is everybody
> affected by the actions of one/few?
>
>
>
> What if the account holder ceases to be a customer of 'that' ISP?  With
> the trend of short term accounts, a user could move between an ISP every
> month at little cost... so as long as they rotate every month or two, this
> process is moot?
>
>
>
> ----Specific Questions----
>
>
>
>
>
> 3.9.2 - This seems like a VERY administratively costly method.  Why not
> just email?  Pop-Ups is VERY hard technically to do and potentially
> requires intercepting of communications.  Registered mail is VERY expensive
> in bulk and may end up costing a LOT of money.
>
>
>
> 3.10.3 - Why is the account holder paying? What if they can't afford to
> pay it?  I'd like to see the circumstances on which it can be waived? and
> how the panel will pay for the costs of evaluating the work involved.
>
>
>
> 3.10.8 - Are you suggesting that the panel has the power to ask ISPs to
> bypass privacy legislation?
>
>
>
>
>
> 3.10.10 - How will the panel handle people who have been hacked (virus,
> wifi, etc etc) and there defence is simply "We didn't do it" regardless of
> wether their connection actually did or not?
>
>
>
> 3.11 - What is ISPs don't? Or if they lose the information through systems
> failure, hacking, or mistake?
>
>
>
> 3.12.7 - Is the ISP required to be involved in the request? Who will pay
> for this?
>
>
>
> 3.12.10 - So you are saying that this is a paper tiger and accomplishes
> nothing but a bunch of emails and potential costs for ISPs?
>
>
>
> *4.1.3 - Equal? Why? Why are ISPs being forced to pay for the policing of
> this?  What mechanism will ISPs be forced to pay for it?  How much will
> panel members be paid for this? This could end up in hundreds of thousands
> of requests and be more than a full-time job.  How will it handle thousands
> of queries from account holders?*
>
>
>
> In the Process flow.3 - Match IPA to Service.  If an ISP does not track
> this information, are they able to ignore all requests?
>
>
>
>
>
> If this is all so important... then why isn't the Comms Alliance building
> and hosting a platform to facilitate this process, paying for lawyers and
> so on?
>
>
>
> There are a LOT of other things in this draft, but I think overall it is
> massively faulted and based on a bad foundation that ISPs are responsible
> at all for what their users are doing.  It shifts an admin burden to the
> ISPs that has cost implications which are unknown and could be very
> significant - if not business affecting - to smaller players.
>
>
>
> If the ISPs of Australia do not fight back against this, many many small
> players (and bigger ones too) could be crippled by this process which the
> Comms Alliance has agreed to.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
>
> --
>
> Skeeve Stevens - The ISP Guy
>
> Email: skeeve at theispguy.com ; Twitter: @TheISPGuy
> <https://twitter.com/TheISPGuy>
>
> Blog: TheISPGuy.com <http://theispguy.com/> ; Facebook: TheISPGuy
> <https://www.facebook.com/theispguy>
>
> Linkedin: /in/skeeve <http://www.linkedin.com/in/skeeve> ; Expert360:
> Profile <https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Peter Tonoli <peter at medstv.unimelb.edu.au>
> wrote:
>
>
> Just to let you know, from the headline of this email, the whole ISP
> community has agreed to this.. ISPs agree to graduated warnings for pirates
>
>
> Draft copyright infringement code published.
>
> Australian internet service providers have agreed to implement a graduated
> warning scheme for users engaged in online copyright infringement, as part
> of a draft industry code issued today.
>
> The Communications Alliance, the ISP representative body, today unveiled
> the draft code in order to meet the Government's April deadline for an
> agreed industry plan for self-regulation.
>
> The federal government late last year warned ISPs and rights holders that
> it would enforce its own code for tackling online copyright infringement if
> the industry could not agree on one.
>
> The ISP body published a draft version of the code today [ pdf] . It will
> apply only to fixed-line connections, and will see a series of escalated
> warnings issued to those suspected of downloading content such as films and
> TV shows without paying.
>
> But the ISPs and rights holders are yet reach agreement on who will fund
> the scheme - the main reason similar talks broke down in 2012 - as well as
> how many notices will be sent during the first 18 months of the code's
> operation.
>
> From:
> http://www.itnews.com.au/News/400747,isps-agree-to-graduated-warning-notices-for-pirates.aspx#ixzz3SFklq8dz
> --
>
> Peter Tonoli < peter at medstv.unimelb.edu.au > +61-3-9231-2399
>
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-- 

Damien Gardner Jnr
VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust
rendrag at rendrag.net -  http://www.rendrag.net/
--
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
 We ran to the sounds of thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
 and tore the world asunder
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