<div dir="ltr">It did seem a little one-sided there. It's all well and fine to say the process on the Rights Holder side must be certified, but there was no documented recourse if it should be found that the Rights Holder was telling furfies. For example, AFAIAC, should the Rights Holder be found to be making false allegations, the ISP should have the right to blacklist them and never deal with them again.<div><br></div><div>Seems like the Account Holder needs some recourse BEFORE the Final Notice, also. For example, if the Account Holder is a household with 4 teenagers, AND lots of visiting friends, well, they have no way to tell who may have done it, so there needs to be a way to come back to the ISP and say 'Sorry, this was NOT me, nor was it someone I can identify, so please cancel this notice'.<br><div><br></div><div>I don't like the requirement for the ISP to send out the Final Notices via registered post, without there being some way to recoup that cost. Automated emails are all well and fine. But once you have to have someone print, fold, and stuff a letter, walk to the post office, get a tracking number, and then come back and enter that number into a system, that notice just cost you $30 to send. And then later when someone needs to audit that process because there was a failure in the system (The accounts junior that walked to the post office mixed up two of the tracking numbers), that notice then just cost you another $200+ in developer time.</div><div><br></div><div>Seems to be putting a LOT of cost and administrative overhead on the ISP's, for NO benefit to ISP's or the community. All the benefit is on the Rights Holders. Perhaps a $10-20 per processed infringement notice incoming from the Rights Holders would be a good cost offset for the effort involved?</div></div><div><br></div><div>--DG</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 22 February 2015 at 13:27, Nathanael Bettridge <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nathanael@prodigy.com.au" target="_blank">nathanael@prodigy.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-AU" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Interestingly I couldn’t see on a quick reading anything dealing with if the
<i>reports from the rights holders themselves</i> are bogus or vexatious, thereby putting end users in bad standing and costing ISPs money. I’d love to see some kind of recourse for knowingly making false allegations or knowingly alleging violation without
standing. There is in fact the implied assumption throughout that the alleged rights violation actually occurred, just not necessary by the account holder personally. Surely it should be emphasizing that the violation allegation is just an unproven allegation
at that point and that it <i>may not have taken place at all</i>?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Also interesting that the TIO is specifically excluded from the scheme.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Finally – what’s the bet that the “education” page that the notices have to point at will basically be free advertising for a select
group of rights holders/distributors? I wonder if CC content will even get a mention in the “education” documentation.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1f497d">Nathanael Bettridge<br>
Prodigy Communications Pty Ltd<br>
Mobile: +61 (0)4 1048 0170<br>
Office: <a href="tel:%2B61%20%280%292%208214%208920" value="+61282148920" target="_blank">+61 (0)2 8214 8920</a><br>
Fax: <a href="tel:%2B61%20%280%292%209427%204203" value="+61294274203" target="_blank">+61 (0)2 9427 4203</a><br>
Email: <a href="mailto:nathanael@prodigy.com.au" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">nathanael@prodigy.com.au</span></a><br>
Web: <a href="http://www.prodigy.com.au/" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">www.prodigy.com.au</span></a></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1f497d">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> AusNOG [mailto:<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Noel Butler<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, 22 February 2015 12:17<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] "ISPs agree to graduated warnings for pirates"<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I pretty much agree with everything said here, however, in my skimming, did I or did I not read the only end user dispute can occur after they have final notice? what dropkick came up with that? anyone accused of anything has
a right of dispute there and then, if they want to dispute and have wiped a 1st or 2nd warning, it is there right to do so at that time.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt">I think it also needs to be made extremely clear that "all ISP's" should be replaced by all comms alliance members - which are a negligible number compared to overall alleged 600 or so ISP's, have you 500 customers, or 500,000,
your input and choice is as equal as any other.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt">The fact it specifically excludes wireless forms also places it into the joke box. </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:9.0pt">I dont recall every ISP being asked by comms alliance for input, or even if they agree, maybe thats what they are doing now? in that case, the response is GAGF, your draft has a looooong way to go, its got more holes in it
that a pallet of swiss cheese.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">On 22/02/2015 07:33, Skeeve Stevens wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #1010ff 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">So, the draft code is here:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="http://www.commsalliance.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/47570/DR-C653-2015.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.commsalliance.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/47570/DR-C653-2015.pdf</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">A couple of questions.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">- How does this affect businesses, companies, etc which has many users behind their connection. Universities/Schools, Internet Cafes, corporate internet, public wifi, etc - which may or may not have the ability
or detect what their users are doing.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">What will be the penalties of businesses who can't identify the abuser? Will a company be taken down because of a user?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Based on the definitions an 'Account Holder' is a natural person on Residential fixed internet account'. Does does mean businesses (of any size) as end users are exempt? <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Will a family be taken down because of a childs actions? Is everybody affected by the actions of one/few?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">What if the account holder ceases to be a customer of 'that' ISP? With the trend of short term accounts, a user could move between an ISP every month at little cost... so as long as they rotate every month
or two, this process is moot?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">----Specific Questions----<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">3.9.2 - This seems like a VERY administratively costly method. Why not just email? Pop-Ups is VERY hard technically to do and potentially requires intercepting of communications. Registered mail is VERY
expensive in bulk and may end up costing a LOT of money.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">3.10.3 - Why is the account holder paying? What if they can't afford to pay it? I'd like to see the circumstances on which it can be waived? and how the panel will pay for the costs of evaluating the work
involved.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">3.10.8 - Are you suggesting that the panel has the power to ask ISPs to bypass privacy legislation?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">3.10.10 - How will the panel handle people who have been hacked (virus, wifi, etc etc) and there defence is simply "We didn't do it" regardless of wether their connection actually did or not?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">3.11 - What is ISPs don't? Or if they lose the information through systems failure, hacking, or mistake?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">3.12.7 - Is the ISP required to be involved in the request? Who will pay for this?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">3.12.10 - So you are saying that this is a paper tiger and accomplishes nothing but a bunch of emails and potential costs for ISPs?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt">4.1.3 - Equal? Why? Why are ISPs being forced to pay for the policing of this? What mechanism will ISPs be forced to pay for it? How much will panel members be paid for this? This could end up in
hundreds of thousands of requests and be more than a full-time job. How will it handle thousands of queries from account holders?</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">In the Process flow.3 - Match IPA to Service. If an ISP does not track this information, are they able to ignore all requests?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">If this is all so important... then why isn't the Comms Alliance building and hosting a platform to facilitate this process, paying for lawyers and so on?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">There are a LOT of other things in this draft, but I think overall it is massively faulted and based on a bad foundation that ISPs are responsible at all for what their users are doing. It shifts an admin
burden to the ISPs that has cost implications which are unknown and could be very significant - if not business affecting - to smaller players.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">If the ISPs of Australia do not fight back against this, many many small players (and bigger ones too) could be crippled by this process which the Comms Alliance has agreed to.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d"><br>
...Skeeve<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d"><br>
--<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d">Skeeve Stevens - </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d">The ISP Guy</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d">Email: <a href="mailto:skeeve@theispguy.com" target="_blank">skeeve@theispguy.com</a> ; </span><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d">Twitter: </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d"><a href="https://twitter.com/TheISPGuy" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">@TheISPGuy</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d">Blog: <a href="http://theispguy.com/" target="_blank">TheISPGuy.com</a> ; Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/theispguy" target="_blank">TheISPGuy</a></span><span style="font-size:9.5pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d">Linkedin: <a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">/in/skeeve</span></a> ; </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Expert360: </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#20497d"><a href="https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">Profile</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Peter Tonoli <<a href="mailto:peter@medstv.unimelb.edu.au" target="_blank">peter@medstv.unimelb.edu.au</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
Just to let you know, from the headline of this email, the whole ISP community has agreed to this.. ISPs agree to graduated warnings for pirates<br>
<br>
<br>
Draft copyright infringement code published.<br>
<br>
Australian internet service providers have agreed to implement a graduated warning scheme for users engaged in online copyright infringement, as part of a draft industry code issued today.<br>
<br>
The Communications Alliance, the ISP representative body, today unveiled the draft code in order to meet the Government's April deadline for an agreed industry plan for self-regulation.<br>
<br>
The federal government late last year warned ISPs and rights holders that it would enforce its own code for tackling online copyright infringement if the industry could not agree on one.<br>
<br>
The ISP body published a draft version of the code today [ pdf] . It will apply only to fixed-line connections, and will see a series of escalated warnings issued to those suspected of downloading content such as films and TV shows without paying.<br>
<br>
But the ISPs and rights holders are yet reach agreement on who will fund the scheme - the main reason similar talks broke down in 2012 - as well as how many notices will be sent during the first 18 months of the code's operation.<br>
<br>
From: <a href="http://www.itnews.com.au/News/400747,isps-agree-to-graduated-warning-notices-for-pirates.aspx#ixzz3SFklq8dz" target="_blank">
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/400747,isps-agree-to-graduated-warning-notices-for-pirates.aspx#ixzz3SFklq8dz</a><br>
<span><span style="color:#888888">--</span></span><span style="color:#888888"><br>
<br>
<span>Peter Tonoli < <a href="mailto:peter@medstv.unimelb.edu.au" target="_blank">
peter@medstv.unimelb.edu.au</a> > <a href="tel:%2B61-3-9231-2399" target="_blank">+61-3-9231-2399</a></span><br>
<br>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>AusNOG mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a></span><br>
<span><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a></span></span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>AusNOG mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
AusNOG mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">
<p>Damien Gardner Jnr<br>VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust<br><a href="mailto:rendrag@rendrag.net" target="_blank">rendrag@rendrag.net</a> - <span><a href="http://www.rendrag.net/" target="_blank">http://www.rendrag.net/</a><u><br></u></span>--<br>We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br> We ran to the sounds of thunder.<br>We danced among the lightning bolts,<br> and tore the world asunder</p></div></div>
</div>