[AusNOG] Metadata retention... it's now (almost) a thing

Fri Oct 31 11:04:01 EST 2014

In message <CAEUfUGM0j1_Qb0kS83mHN91+c1xqj+9pWyWmKTsmU=3ZvPsADw at mail.gmail.com>
, Skeeve Stevens writes:
> 
> IMHO, We should not care about users privacy as it pertains to telecoms
> services - THEY should.  No one should outsource their privacy to someone
> else.
> 
> We shouldn't be encrypting, securing or otherwise worrying about their
> comms, unless it is a part of the service they are paying for - and then it
> should be best effort based on the agreement for the service.
> 
> If they choose to use Gmail, Hotmail, TOR, or a secure provider they IPSEC
> into - it is their responsibility.

But you should be worrying about your and your staff's privacy.  That means
offering secure channels for *everything*.

> ...Skeeve
> 
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
> 
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
> 
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
> 
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
> 
> 
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
> 
> On 31 October 2014 09:41, Noel Butler <noel.butler at ausics.net> wrote:
> 
> >  pffft
> >
> > anyone who is going to do something stupid is hardly going to use a
> > provider supplied email, and recommending they use gmail or hotmail shows
> > you dont care about their users privacy, you only care about your part in
> > responsibility.
> >
> >
> >
> > I think there are way too many paranoid people here, its almost like, the
> > writers of "millenium"  should read the archives of this list for a great
> > comeback series :)
> >
> >
> >
> > On 30/10/2014 16:58, Skeeve Stevens wrote:
> >
> > I'd love to know what is meant by SMTP.
> >
> > For new providers I'm building these days my recommendation is to do NO
> > mail.  Consumers can go to gmail/hotmail/etc...  and businesses run their
> > own.
> >
> >
> > If I ran an SMTP relay for customers, I would tell customers not to use
> > it... so there would be no record.
> >
> > Business should setup a $10 per month AWS instance in the US or Japan and
> > relay email through that.
> >
> > My opinion is that if we don't offer the service, we can't actually log it
> > or give the information over.
> >
> > On the other hand.. if they are asking us to intercept traffic to figure
> > this stuff out... then I'd think there would be a much bigger problem.
> >
> >
> > ...Skeeve
> >
> >  *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> >  skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
> >
> > Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
> >
> > facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve
> >
> > twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
> >
> > The Experts Who The Experts Call
> >  Juniper - Cisco - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
> >
> > On 30 October 2014 11:54, David Beveridge <dave at bevhost.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't know why you're so upset about this.
> >> They're only asking you to keep radius and smtp logs.
> >> It's not like you're being asked to keep two years worth of netflow
> >> history.
> >>
> >> dave
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Paul Julian <paul at oxygennetworks.com.au
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>  This is total bullshit, these people just have no clue, is there
> >>> nothing we can do as a community to try and stop this nonsense ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I can just see the $$$$ now.....
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *An
> drew
> >>> Yager
> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, 30 October 2014 11:22 AM
> >>> *To:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> >>> *Subject:* [AusNOG] Metadata retention... it's now (almost) a thing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/turnbull-to-rush-metadata
> -retention-legislation-through-parliament/story-e6frg90f-1227106806266?nk=721
> 04b22405c826c296d068859fd4bea
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Andrew
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>> *Andrew Yager, Managing Director*   *MACS (Snr) CP BCompSc JNCIS-SP*
> >>> Real World Technology Solutions Pty Ltd - IT people you can trust
> >>> ph: 1300 798 718 or (02) 9037 0500
> >>> fax: (02) 9037 0591
> >>> http://www.rwts.com.au/
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> AusNOG mailing list
> >>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> >>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> AusNOG mailing list
> >> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> >> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
> >>
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > AusNOG mailing listAusNOG at lists.ausnog.nethttp://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/l
> istinfo/ausnog
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > AusNOG mailing list
> > AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> > http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
> >
> >
> 
> --001a1135e318d6252c0506abf03a
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> <div dir=3D"ltr">IMHO, We should not care about users privacy as it pertain=
> s to telecoms services - THEY should.=C2=A0 No one should outsource their p=
> rivacy to someone else.<div><br></div><div>We shouldn't be encrypting, =
> securing or otherwise worrying about their comms, unless it is a part of th=
> e service they are paying for - and then it should be best effort based on =
> the agreement for the service.</div><div><br></div><div>If they choose to u=
> se Gmail, Hotmail, TOR, or a secure provider they IPSEC into - it is their =
> responsibility.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all"><di=
> v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br>...Skeeve</div><div><br></div><div><div><b styl=
> e=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri">Skeeve Stevens -=C2=A0</b><span st=
> yle=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri">eintellego Networks Pty Ltd</spa=
> n></div><div><div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px"><a hre=
> f=3D"mailto:skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com" target=3D"_blank">skeeve at eintell=
> egonetworks.com</a>=C2=A0;=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.eintellegonetworks.co=
> m/" target=3D"_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span><font><p style=
> =3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin:0px">Phone: 1300 239 038;=C2=
> =A0Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;=C2=A0<a>skype://skeeve</a></p><p style=3D"font=
> -family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin:0px"><a href=3D"http://facebook.com/e=
> intellegonetworks" target=3D"_blank">facebook.com/eintellegonetworks</a>=C2=
> =A0;=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://twitter.com/networkceoau" target=3D"_blank"></a=
> ><a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target=3D"_blank">linkedin.com/i=
> n/skeeve</a>=C2=A0</p><p style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin=
> :0px"><a href=3D"http://twitter.com/theispguy" target=3D"_blank">twitter.co=
> m/theispguy</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0; blog:=C2=A0</span><=
> a href=3D"http://www.theispguy.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.theispguy.com</a=
> ><br></p><p style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin:0px"><img sr=
> c=3D"http://eintellegonetworks.com/logos/ein09.png"><br></p><p style=3D"mar=
> gin:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(127,0,127);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
> ;font-size:13px">The Experts Who The Experts Call</span></p></font></div><d=
> iv style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(127,0,1=
> 27)"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px">Juniper - Cisco=C2=
> =A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px">- Cloud</span><=
> span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px">=C2=A0</span><span style=
> =3D"color:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px">- Consulting</span><span style=3D"co=
> lor:rgb(0,32,96);font-size:13px">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,32=
> ,96);font-size:13px">- IPv4 Brokering</span></div></div></div></div></div>
> <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 31 October 2014 09:41, Noel Butler <span =
> dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:noel.butler at ausics.net" target=3D"_blank"=
> >noel.butler at ausics.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
> _quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
> 1ex"><u></u>
> <div style=3D"font-size:10pt">
> <p>pffft</p>
> <p>anyone who is going to do something stupid is hardly going to use a prov=
> ider supplied email, and recommending they use gmail or hotmail shows you d=
> ont care about their users privacy, you only care about your part in respon=
> sibility.</p>
> <p>=C2=A0</p>
> <p><span style=3D"font-size:12px">I think there are way too many paranoid p=
> eople here, its almost like, the writers of "millenium" =C2=A0sho=
> uld read the archives of this list for a great comeback series :)</span></p=
> >
> <p>=C2=A0</p>
> <p>On 30/10/2014 16:58, Skeeve Stevens wrote:</p>
> <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"padding-left:5px;border-left:#1010ff 2px=
>  solid;margin-left:5px">
> <div dir=3D"ltr">I'd love to know what is meant by SMTP.
> <div>=C2=A0</div>
> <div>For new providers I'm building these days my recommendation is to =
> do NO mail.=C2=A0 Consumers can go to gmail/hotmail/etc... =C2=A0and busine=
> sses run their own.</div>
> <div>=C2=A0</div>
> <div>=C2=A0</div>
> <div>If I ran an SMTP relay for customers, I would tell customers not to us=
> e it... so there would be no record.</div>
> <div>=C2=A0</div>
> <div>Business should setup a $10 per month AWS instance in the US or Japan =
> and relay email through that.</div>
> <div>=C2=A0</div>
> <div>My opinion is that if we don't offer the service, we can't act=
> ually log it or give the information over.</div>
> <div>=C2=A0</div>
> <div>On the other hand.. if they are asking us to intercept traffic to figu=
> re this stuff out... then I'd think there would be a much bigger proble=
> m.</div>
> </div>
> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
> <div>
> <div dir=3D"ltr">
> <div><br>...Skeeve</div>
> <div>=C2=A0</div>
> <div>
> <div><strong style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri">Skeeve Stevens -=
> =C2=A0</strong><span style=3D"font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri">eintelleg=
> o Networks Pty Ltd</span></div>
> <div>
> <div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px"><a href=3D"mailto:s=
> keeve at eintellegonetworks.com" target=3D"_blank">skeeve at eintellegonetworks.c=
> om</a>=C2=A0;=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/" target=3D=
> "_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span>
> <p style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin:0px">Phone: 1300 239 =
> 038;=C2=A0Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;=C2=A0<a>skype://skeeve</a></p>
> <p style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin:0px"><a href=3D"http:=
> //facebook.com/eintellegonetworks" target=3D"_blank">facebook.com/eintelleg=
> onetworks</a>=C2=A0;=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target=
> =3D"_blank">linkedin.com/in/skeeve</a>=C2=A0</p>
> <p style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin:0px"><a href=3D"http:=
> //twitter.com/theispguy" target=3D"_blank">twitter.com/theispguy</a><span s=
> tyle=3D"color:#000000">=C2=A0; blog:=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"http://www.thei=
> spguy.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.theispguy.com</a></p>
> <p style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px;margin:0px"><img src=3D"cid:=
> 14147088975452bea1ea4e8594208567 at ausics.net" alt=3D""></p>
> <p style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"color:#7f007f;font-family:Calibri,sa=
> ns-serif;font-size:13px">The Experts Who The Experts Call</span></p>
> </div>
> <div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:#7f007f">=
> <span style=3D"color:#002060;font-size:13px">Juniper - Cisco=C2=A0</span><s=
> pan style=3D"color:#002060;font-size:13px">- Cloud</span><span style=3D"col=
> or:#002060;font-size:13px">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:#002060;font-s=
> ize:13px">- Consulting</span><span style=3D"color:#002060;font-size:13px">=
> =C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:#002060;font-size:13px">- IPv4 Brokering<=
> /span></div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> <br>
> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 30 October 2014 11:54, David Beveridge <span>=
> <<a href=3D"mailto:dave at bevhost.com" target=3D"_blank">dave at bevhost.com<=
> /a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
> x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> <div dir=3D"ltr">I don't know why you're so upset about this.=C2=A0
> <div>They're only asking you to keep radius and smtp logs.</div>
> <div>It's not like you're being asked to keep two years worth of ne=
> tflow history.</div>
> <div>=C2=A0</div>
> <div>dave</div>
> </div>
> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 30, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Paul Julian <s=
> pan><<a href=3D"mailto:paul at oxygennetworks.com.au" target=3D"_blank">pau=
> l at oxygennetworks.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
> x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> <div lang=3D"EN-AU">
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Cal=
> ibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d">This is total bullshit, these=
>  people just have no clue, is there nothing we can do as a community to try=
>  and stop this nonsense ?<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span><=
> span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Cal=
> ibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d"><span style=3D"text-decoratio=
> n:underline"></span>=C2=A0<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span>=
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Cal=
> ibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d">I can just see the $$$$ now..=
> ...<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span><span style=3D"text-dec=
> oration:underline"></span></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Cal=
> ibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d"><span style=3D"text-decoratio=
> n:underline"></span>=C2=A0<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span>=
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Cal=
> ibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d">Regards<span style=3D"text-de=
> coration:underline"></span><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span=
> ></span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Cal=
> ibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d">Paul<span style=3D"text-decor=
> ation:underline"></span><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></=
> span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:'Cal=
> ibri','sans-serif';color:#1f497d"><span style=3D"text-decoratio=
> n:underline"></span>=C2=A0<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span>=
> </span></p>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
> 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</span></strong><span style=3D"=
> font-size:10.0pt;font-family:'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> AusNOG=
>  [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_blan=
> k">ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net</a>] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Andre=
> w Yager<br><strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, 30 October 2014 11:22 AM<br><st=
> rong>To:</strong> <a href=3D"mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_bla=
> nk">ausnog at lists.ausnog.net</a><br><strong>Subject:</strong> [AusNOG] Metad=
> ata retention... it's now (almost) a thing<span style=3D"text-decoratio=
> n:underline"></span><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></span=
> ></p>
> <div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span>=C2=
> =A0<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></p>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/=
> latest/turnbull-to-rush-metadata-retention-legislation-through-parliament/s=
> tory-e6frg90f-1227106806266?nk=3D72104b22405c826c296d068859fd4bea" target=
> =3D"_blank">http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/latest/turnbull-to-rus=
> h-metadata-retention-legislation-through-parliament/story-e6frg90f-12271068=
> 06266?nk=3D72104b22405c826c296d068859fd4bea</a><span style=3D"text-decorati=
> on:underline"></span><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></p>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span>=C2=
> =A0<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></p>
> </div>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andrew<br clear=3D"all"><span style=3D"text-decorati=
> on:underline"></span><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></p>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span>=C2=
> =A0<span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></p>
> </div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span>=
> <span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></p>
> <div>
> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><strong>Andrew Yager, Managing Director</strong> =C2=
> =A0 <em>MACS (Snr) CP BCompSc JNCIS-SP</em><br>Real World Technology Soluti=
> ons Pty Ltd - IT people you can trust<br>ph: 1300 798 718 or (02) 9037 0500=
> <br>fax: (02) 9037 0591<br><a href=3D"http://www.rwts.com.au/" target=3D"_b=
> lank">http://www.rwts.com.au/</a><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline">=
> </span><span style=3D"text-decoration:underline"></span></p>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> </div>
> <br>_______________________________________________<br> AusNOG mailing list=
> <br><a href=3D"mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_blank">AusNOG at lis=
> ts.ausnog.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/au=
> snog" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a>=
> <br><br></blockquote>
> </div>
> </div>
> <br>_______________________________________________<br> AusNOG mailing list=
> <br><a href=3D"mailto:AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net" target=3D"_blank">AusNOG at lis=
> ts.ausnog.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/au=
> snog" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a>=
> <br><br></blockquote>
> </div>
> </div>
> <br>
> <pre>_______________________________________________
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> k">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a>
> </pre>
> </blockquote>
> <p>=C2=A0</p>
> </div>
> <br>_______________________________________________<br>
> AusNOG mailing list<br>
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> k">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
> <br></blockquote></div><br></div>
> 
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> _______________________________________________
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> --===============6245350589557418527==--
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka at isc.org