[AusNOG] Discussion point: Why aren't the NBNCo tails symmetric in speed?

[Chris Ricks]

$1000 / month cost to the RSP, per-tail effectively.

It's definitely not competitive with services I see offered, but
coverage is the differentiator here potentially.

On 09/04/14 11:37, Tony wrote:
> My understanding is you are entirely correct, you would need TC-2 &
> TC-4 CVC's if you wanted to deliver both types of traffic, you can't
> mix them up.
>
> What I was comparing was on the basis that if you wanted to provide
> only one of them over the other one, then the only cost differential
> is the extra tail cost of $218/mon.
>
> Assuming you don't want to contend your CVC (and isn't that the whole
> point of TC-2 ?) then a 40/40M TC-2 service is going to cost $256 +
> $800 = $1056/mon. This would provide a service that I think would be
> comparable to me currently purchasing a p2p fibre service from any
> existing carrier (CIR = tail speed, non-contended the whole way). I
> don't know what others might say, but I feel that $1000/mon for a 40M
> fibre service is not very competitive with comparable offerings in
> this space ?
>
>
> regards,
> Tony.
>
>
> On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 10:37:25 +1000, Joseph Goldman <joe at apcs.com.au>
> wrote:
>
>> I was personally reading it as you need to purchase 2x lots of CVC,
>> one for each Traffic Class, so your TC-4 circuits will deliver over
>> your TC-4 CVC (only), and your TC-2 circuits will deliver over your
>> TC-2 CVC, so if you wanted to supply both TC-4 and TC-2 services,
>> you'd be spending $2000/100mbps x 2 on top of the circuit costs,
>> rather than $2000/100mbps x 1 and both TC's share it.
>>
>> Could well be wrong though.
>>
>> On 09/04/14 10:34, Tony wrote:
>>> From what I can see in the doco, the CVC costs for TC-4 & TC-2 are
>>> the same (1.2 a & c) ? They are both $2000/100Mbps ? Regardless of
>>> whether you want to offer TC-2 or TC-4 this component of the cost
>>> model seems to stay the same ?
>>>
>>> Does this mean that the only difference* in the cost of 40M TC-2
>>> compared to 40M TC-4 is the difference in the AVC/UNI component,
>>> which is $38 for 100/40 TC-4 and $256 for 40/40 TC-2 (so $218 extra) ?
>>>
>>> Am I reading that right ?
>>>
>>>
>>> * Of course you get 100/40 on a TC-4 service compared to 40/40 on a
>>> TC-2, but I am comparing them on the basis of being able to provide
>>> a 40M symmetrical service over both of them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tony.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 09:39:03 +1000, Joseph Goldman <joe at apcs.com.au>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Looking at the document, TC-2 symmetrical service for 40M (highest
>>>> available) is a lease of $256.00 / month for the EU circuit, +
>>>> associated costs of TC-2 CVC ($1,000.00 for 50mbit starting point).
>>>>
>>>> On 09/04/14 09:32, Tony wrote:
>>>>> "recently" as in 21 days in the future from now ! That doc is
>>>>> dated 30/04/2014 ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> As others have already stated, the asymmetrical nature of the tail
>>>>> speeds is due to the use of GPON.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would assume the 40M/40M TC2 product is just a 100/40 tail with
>>>>> the downstream limited to 40M to make it symmetrical ?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's interesting to see TC2 available now. Is TC3 released yet ?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want a symmetrical tail above 40M, then you're still going
>>>>> to be better going to the traditional carriers that you would use
>>>>> now. IF at some point in the future NBN fibre is actually rolled
>>>>> out and IF at some point the 1000/400 product becomes widely
>>>>> available and IF TC3 is available for the full 1000/400 of the
>>>>> service then it would be something that MIGHT compete with going
>>>>> and buying fibre from whoever you would now. About two years ago
>>>>> Telstra & Optus (and quite probably AAPT, PIPE, others as well)
>>>>> dropped the pricing on a 100M fibre tail service in anticipation
>>>>> of competition from NBN. This is guaranteed 100M symmetrical
>>>>> bandwidth between the two points, no asymmetrical and I don't have
>>>>> to buy some "class" of traffic to make sure my traffic makes it
>>>>> from A to B.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure of which of all of those bits in the NBN pricelist I
>>>>> need. Can someone who knows tell me what it would cost for that
>>>>> 40M symmetrical TC2 service from NBN ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> Tony.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 08:09:10 +1000, myNBN Admin <admin at mynbn.info>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently, NBN Co made TC-2 AVCs available that do provide
>>>>>> symmetrical speeds of up to 40Mbps/40Mbps.  This isn't Traffic
>>>>>> Class 4… but it is a symmetrical product provided by NBN Co.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See Page 6 for pricing:
>>>>>> http://nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco/documents/sfaa-wba2-product-catalogue-price-list_20140430.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Kenneth Tsang
>>>>>>
>>>>>> myNBN.info | creator and developer
>>>>>> E: admin at mynbn.info | T: @mynbninfo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> myNBN is not affiliated with NBN Co and is an independent
>>>>>> tracking website.  This email is confidential and is subject to
>>>>>> copyright. They are intended solely for the intended addressee of
>>>>>> the electronic mail and may only be copied, distributed or
>>>>>> disclosed with the consent of the copyright owner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, 7 April 2014 at 8:52 PM, Skeeve Stevens wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am sure this will spurn a healthy discussion... perhaps with
>>>>>>> conflicting views...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But I was wondering the other day 'Why aren't NBNCo tails sold
>>>>>>> as symmetric speeds?'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Considering:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - The transit the RSP buys is symmetric (nearly always)
>>>>>>> - The network core of the RSP is symmetric
>>>>>>> - The handoff to either NBNCo or an aggregator (and then NBNCo)
>>>>>>> is pretty much always symmetric
>>>>>>> - The PoI's core is symmetric
>>>>>>> - The fibre to the home is symmetric capable
>>>>>>> - The NTU is just ethernet - symmetric
>>>>>>> - Anything they plug into the NTU is symmetrical - ethernet
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Google Fibre in the US is 1G/1G in speeds...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So... unless I am missing something obvious (always possible)...
>>>>>>> Why are NBNCo tails not sold as symmetrical speeds?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not sure why there is this artificial design in these
>>>>>>> products to make them asymmetric.  There doesn't seem to be any
>>>>>>> gain by doing this that I can think of.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gone are the days of DSL like speeds and unbalanced design...
>>>>>>> even ATM was symmetrical.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Keen for peoples opinions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ...Skeeve
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