[AusNOG] IPv4
Mark Andrews
marka at isc.org
Tue Mar 5 08:02:45 EST 2013
In message <002601ce18a8$81df23e0$859d6ba0$@rb.net.au>, "Rod Veith" writes:
>
> Mark Andrews questions, my answers:
>
>
>
> Q1: I'm curious, how would you have allocated address over the last 10
> years?
>
> A: Not sure I could have done better with allocations. What could have been
> done better is a 'use it or lose it' clause in the conditions applying to
> not only new allocations but all historical allocations.
So you can't actually point out anywhere that the RIRs have mismanaged
the allocations. IPv4 addresses were always going to run out. That
the addresses have run out is not evidence of mismangement.
As for a 'use it or lose it' being added to the conditions almost
all applicants did use it. All I can see with a 'use it or lose
it' policy is that RIR's would have been spending vast amounts of
money doing mostly useless audits which as far as I can tell is the
only way to enforce a 'use it or lose it' policy. There were rules
to recover addresses when companies failed and they weren't in use
otherwise they were transfered.
As for retroactively applying new rules to legacy allocations I
suspect that it would have been squashed at the first court case.
Note any additional applications for addresses required that the
applicants demonstrate that they were using their existing address
by the new guide lines. Lots of legacy address holders were being
held to exactly the same conditions as the rest of the address
holders due to this. Also for APNIC and RIPE there are very few
legacy allocation. The vast majority of those where inherited by
ARIN.
> Q2: Please list actual resources that APNIC, ARIN or RIPE could recover.
>
> A: Specious question used to mask a case for doing nothing. Please ask
> better questions that contribute in a meaningful way this good discussion.
You claim that there is vast amounts of unused addresses out there
to be reclaimed. I've got no doubt that there are some addresses.
I doubt that there are vast amounts or that it would be worth
spending the money required to firstly uncover them and secondly
to get them returned.
Yes it is a pain to not have the addresses you need to expand. I
suspect that you would have better results with a public awareness
campain asking why Optus and Telstra are abusing their dominate
market position by not offering IPv6 to residential customers. If
Telstra Wholesale can deliver IPv6 them Telstra Retail can as well.
IPv6 is place where ISP's need to take the lead to keep the Australian
economy compeditive.
> Q3: Is there really? Not globally announced does not mean that they are
> mis-managed.
>
> A: Partially agreed. The fact some people have legitimate uses is no excuse
> to do nothing.
>
>
>
> Q4: Again what used addresses?
>
> A: See answer to Q2.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Andrews [mailto:marka at isc.org]
> Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013 5:01 PM
> To: Rod Veith
> Cc: 'AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net'
> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
>
>
>
>
>
> In message < <mailto:011c01ce188c$c91f1ab0$5b5d5010$@rb.net.au>
> 011c01ce188c$c91f1ab0$5b5d5010$@rb.net.au>, "Rod Veith" writes:
>
> >
>
> > "Was v4 allocations screwed? I don't know. We didn't know what was
>
> > going to happen 20 years ago... It is easy to look back in hindsight."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > V4 allocations ARE screwed using hindsight. There is one camp saying
>
> > get over it, use V6 and forget the screwed V4 allocations. And the
>
> > other camp says why not try to fix the problem.
>
>
>
> I'm curious, how would you have allocated address over the last 10 years?
> As far as I can tell the RIR's all have allocated address on the basis of
> need. They didn't hide the fact that IPv4 address were in limited supply.
> They did all they could to promote IPv6 which unlike IPv4 has enough
> addresses for everyone on the planet.
>
>
>
> > It is typical human behaviour to sit on resources even if they are not
>
> > being used because 'one just never knows if they might be needed in 10
>
> > years' time or worth something. Just because many people and
>
> > businesses do this doesn't make it right, just as sitting back and
>
> > letting past mistakes continue is not right.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I think it is wrong of APNIC to NOT take a more proactive role in
>
> > recovering
>
> > V4 allocations that were obvious mistakes in the past, just as other
>
> > "resource allocators" around the world should be doing the same thing.
>
> > Just because people with allocations are going to scream "you can't
>
> > take away something I might use one day etc etc" doesn't mean the
>
> > attempt shouldn't be made.
>
>
>
> Please list actual resources that APNIC, ARIN or RIPE could recover.
>
> > "IPv4 is dead. People need to get over it and move to IPv6..."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > No, IPv4 is not dead. Why should people get over it when quite clearly
>
> > there is a resource not being properly managed. People have every
>
> > right to complain about mismanagement of an important resource. Agreed
>
> > though that people need to move to IPv6 as they can. Problem is that
>
> > many of the organisations with the technical knowledge and resources
>
> > to move to IPv4 have already tied up most of the IPv4 space and don't yet
> care, after all,
>
> > that's a problem for the next CIO to fix.
>
>
>
> Is there really? Not globally announced does not mean that they are
> mis-managed.
>
>
>
> > APNIC needs to grow some balls on this issue and take the lead on
>
> > preserving a scarce resource and re-allocate unused space. If they are
>
> > not willing to behave properly, maybe the resource deserves to be
>
> > given to the ITU to manage.
>
>
>
> Again what usused addresses?
>
>
>
> Mark
>
> --
>
> Mark Andrews, ISC
>
> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
>
> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: <mailto:marka at isc.org>
> marka at isc.org
>
>
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> vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
> lang=3DEN-US>Mark Andrews questions, my answers:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><i><o:p> </o:p></i></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><i>Q1: I'm curious, how would you have allocated =
> address over the last 10 years? <o:p></o:p></i></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>A: Not sure I could have done better with =
> allocations. What could have been done better is a ‘use it or lose =
> it’ clause in the conditions applying to not only new allocations =
> but all historical allocations.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><i>Q2: =
> Please list actual resources that APNIC, ARIN or RIPE could =
> recover.<o:p></o:p></i></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>A: Specious question =
> used to mask a case for doing nothing. Please ask better questions that =
> contribute in a meaningful way this good discussion.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><i>Q3: =
> Is there really? Not globally announced does not mean that they =
> are mis-managed.<o:p></o:p></i></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>A: Partially =
> agreed. The fact some people have legitimate uses is no excuse to do =
> nothing. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><i>Q4: =
> Again what used addresses?<o:p></o:p></i></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>A: =
> See answer to Q2. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
> lang=3DEN-US>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Mark Andrews =
> [mailto:marka at isc.org] <br>Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013 5:01 PM<br>To: Rod =
> Veith<br>Cc: 'AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net'<br>Subject: Re: [AusNOG] =
> IPv4</span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>In =
> message <<a =
> href=3D"mailto:011c01ce188c$c91f1ab0$5b5d5010$@rb.net.au"><span =
> style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>011c01ce188c$c91f1ab0$5b5=
> d5010$@rb.net.au</span></a>>, "Rod Veith" =
> writes:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> "Was v4 allocations screwed? I don't =
> know. We didn't know what was <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> going to happen 20 years ago... It is easy to =
> look back in hindsight."<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> V4 =
> allocations ARE screwed using hindsight. There is one camp saying =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> get over it, use V6 and =
> forget the screwed V4 allocations. And the <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> other camp says why not try to fix the =
> problem.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>I'm curious, how would you have allocated address =
> over the last 10 years? As far as I can tell the RIR's all have =
> allocated address on the basis of need. They didn't hide the fact =
> that IPv4 address were in limited supply. They did all they could =
> to promote IPv6 which unlike IPv4 has enough addresses for everyone on =
> the planet.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> It is typical human behaviour to sit on resources even if they are not =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> being used because 'one just =
> never knows if they might be needed in 10 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> years' time or worth something. Just =
> because many people and <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> businesses do this doesn't make it right, just as sitting back and =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> letting past mistakes =
> continue is not right.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> I =
> think it is wrong of APNIC to NOT take a more proactive role in =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> recovering<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> V4 allocations that were obvious mistakes in =
> the past, just as other <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> "resource allocators" around the world should be doing the =
> same thing. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> Just because =
> people with allocations are going to scream "you can't =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> take away something I might =
> use one day etc etc" doesn't mean the <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> attempt shouldn't be made.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Please =
> list actual resources that APNIC, ARIN or RIPE could =
> recover.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> "IPv4 is dead. People need to get =
> over it and move to IPv6..."<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> No, IPv4 is not dead. Why should people get =
> over it when quite clearly <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> there is a resource not being properly managed. People have every =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> right to complain about =
> mismanagement of an important resource. Agreed <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> though that people need to move to IPv6 as =
> they can. Problem is that <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> many of the organisations with the technical knowledge and resources =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> to move to IPv4 have already =
> tied up most of the IPv4 space and don't yet care, after =
> all,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> that's a problem for the =
> next CIO to fix. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Is =
> there really? Not globally announced does not mean that they are =
> mis-managed.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> APNIC needs to grow some balls on this issue and take the lead on =
> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> preserving a scarce resource =
> and re-allocate unused space. If they are <o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>> not willing to behave properly, maybe the =
> resource deserves to be <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>> =
> given to the ITU to manage.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Again =
> what usused addresses?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>Mark<o:p></o:p></p><p =
> class=3DMsoPlainText>--<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>Mark =
> Andrews, ISC<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>1 Seymour St., Dundas =
> Valley, NSW 2117, Australia<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText>PHONE: =
> +61 2 9871 =
> 4742 &nb=
> sp; INTERNET: <a =
> href=3D"mailto:marka at isc.org"><span =
> style=3D'color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>marka at isc.org</span></a><=
> o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
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--
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka at isc.org
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