[AusNOG] APNIC Slashes Costs for New Members

Sat Mar 2 00:48:33 EST 2013

Actually... Sorry, I was out of date.  One has been abandoned, and the
other failed to reach consensus.

The key thing is Jared... Not all policy that is good gets through.  You
have to convince the representatives of 55 economies (we're not allowed to
say countries).  In the scheme of things, Australia doesn't have much of a
say, because VERY few Australians actually turn up to these events.

Right now, in relation to IPv4, everyone is really just fighting over
scraps (to quote Randy Bush).  BUT, in my opinion, those scraps are
important to small business in Australia and the rest of the APNIC region.

...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net

The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud

On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:39 AM, Skeeve Stevens <
skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:

> Actually, there are just such proposals being discussed at the moment,
> proposed by the Japanese.
>
> I dont think they won't get up though, because it is pointless policy (in
> my personal opinion) and too easy to bypass.
>
> Whatever restrictions ANYONE tries to bring in relating to selling address
> space... you can't stop people leasing it.... BOOM all policy bypassed.
>
> ...Skeeve
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net
>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:31 PM, Damian Guppy <the.damo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Fair point. Maybe apnic could look at policies to make the final /8
>> allocations non-transferable.
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>  ------------------------------
>> From: Jared Hirst <jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au>
>> Sent: 1/03/2013 7:59 PM
>> To: Damian Guppy <the.damo at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Mark Newton <newton at atdot.dotat.org>; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] APNIC Slashes Costs for New Members
>>
>> The going rate is $16/ IP so if someone buys a /22 for $2k they can then
>> on sell it for $16k over night.
>>  This is my argument here, it has now become easy for ANY company to
>> 'invest' and 'monetize' from space.
>>
>> Many moons ago you could not on sell space, however that has now changed.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jared Hirst
>> Servers Australia Pty Ltd
>> Phone: 1300 788 862
>> Direct: (02) 4307 4205
>> E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au
>>
>> On 01/03/2013, at 10:54 PM, Damian Guppy <the.damo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Remember, apac is a very large region, and while $2k might sound cheap
>> for a /22 here, it may not be elsewhere in the region, and a /22 is pretty
>> insignificant.
>>
>> --Damian
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>  ------------------------------
>> From: Jared Hirst <jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au>
>> Sent: 1/03/2013 6:58 PM
>> To: Damian Guppy <the.damo at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Mark Newton <newton at atdot.dotat.org>; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] APNIC Slashes Costs for New Members
>>
>> Every server I provision is IPv6 compatible..... Just no one else is....
>>
>> So I say jack the price of v4 up and force people to v6. Don't allow new
>> and more people to monetize from cheap v4 space and disadvantage those who
>> genuinely need v4 space....
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jared Hirst
>> Servers Australia Pty Ltd
>> Phone: 1300 788 862
>> Direct: (02) 4307 4205
>> E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au
>>
>> On 01/03/2013, at 9:46 PM, Damian Guppy <the.damo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No offence, but at this point following the policies you talk about would
>> still be akin to bailing out the titanic with a hand pump, the move to IPv6
>> is needed, and the sooner the better. The whole "we are running out of
>> IP's" thing has been going on for over 20 years now, it needs to end some
>> where.
>>
>> --Damian
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 6:36 PM, Jared Hirst <
>> jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok no worries. I don't agree with you at all and we will leave it at
>>> that.
>>>
>>> If anyone else wants to speak up then do. If not ill shut up and never
>>> question APNIC policies again.
>>>
>>> Your attitude of 'restricting and policing IP's' won't change a thing
>>> is the exact reason we are in this position.
>>>
>>> If people were conservative with space, use carrier grade NAT and
>>> actually assigned IP's as per policy them you and I would not be
>>> having this conversation, end of story. There would be ample space
>>> available IF people followed policies.
>>>
>>> Call it what you like but people not following policy as got us in
>>> this position.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jared Hirst
>>> Servers Australia Pty Ltd
>>> Phone: 1300 788 862
>>> Direct: (02) 4307 4205
>>> E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au
>>>
>>> On 01/03/2013, at 9:12 PM, Mark Newton <newton at atdot.dotat.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > On 01/03/2013, at 8:16 PM, Jared Hirst <
>>> jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> They have a policy for recovering un used address from what I was told
>>> >> by them, they just don't have the resources to action it.
>>> >
>>> > There's also almost exactly zero point in actioning it.  The
>>> cost/benefit
>>> > equation has a pretty small denominator and a very large numerator.
>>> >
>>> >> Don't have a stab at me, I'm speaking what most are probably thinking.
>>> >
>>> > That's the thing -- I don't think you are.  Otherwise the policy would
>>> > be different.
>>> >
>>> >> Yes I should go to the policy meetings and I will, and I will speak on
>>> >> behalf of around 30 providers that have directly emailed me saying
>>> >> they agree... However from what I was told there IS a policy to stop
>>> >> this, but no one actions it.
>>> >
>>> > Well, all their policies are on their website.  If you want to turn
>>> yourself
>>> > into the policy police, start naming and shaming and see how far it
>>> goes.
>>> >
>>> > <popcorn>
>>> >
>>> >> If you don't think people use loop holes to get IP's for no reason
>>> >> then you need to come and work for a hosting company for a day and see
>>> >> the shit people say to get an IP, second opinions are approved for no
>>> >> reason and IP's are handed out like they are not limited. No wonder we
>>> >> have a world wide shortage.
>>> >
>>> > It isn't supposed to be hard.
>>> >
>>> > We have a world-wide shortage because we have an address space good
>>> > for 4 billion addresses plus change, and we have more than 4 billion
>>> > devices wanting to use it.
>>> >
>>> > Put up all the administrative barriers you like, and there still won't
>>> > be enough IPv4.
>>> >
>>> > Having said that, under the "last /8" policy the remaining store of
>>> > IPv4 addresses in the APNIC region is, for all intents and purposes,
>>> > unlimited -- in the sense that there are 16384 allocatable /22's, and
>>> > less than 16384 APNIC members, and a rule that says only one /22 can
>>> > be allocated to each member.  As long as APNIC continues to have less
>>> > than 16384 members between now and when IPv6 is mainstream (which seems
>>> > likely, even for pessimistic estimates of that time horizon), the
>>> remaining
>>> > addresses are, for all intents and purposes, unlimited.
>>> >
>>> > So, with that policy in place, we have no further need to put barriers
>>> > in the way of allocations.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> The fact people can now get a /22 with minimal justification and cost
>>> >> is my argument,
>>> >
>>> > They've -always- been able to get a /22 with minimal justification.
>>> >
>>> > The only thing that's changed is the price.
>>> >
>>> > Now:  When Gerry Harvey complains about reduced prices enabling new
>>> > market entrants, we all laugh and call it "rent seeking," and say it's
>>> > a sign that his industry has given up on innovation.
>>> >
>>> >> it's now making it easy to source and hold on to for
>>> >> selling and making a profit for later.
>>> >
>>> > Great! More of that, please.  Perhaps they'll inflate the IPv4 price
>>> > bubble so much that migrating to IPv6 has less cost attached to it than
>>> > acquiring IPv4, then we'll start to see some real progress.
>>> >
>>> >> I agree there are some people
>>> >> that really do need them and I FULLY support them IF they have a REAL
>>> >> justification.
>>> >
>>> > Your problem is that you're using your subjective judgment of their
>>> > justification to decide if it's "real", instead of applying the
>>> criteria
>>> > that's in the actual APNIC policy.
>>> >
>>> > APNIC doesn't do that.  They follow what their members have directed
>>> them
>>> > to follow.  There is consequently a mismatch between their behaviour
>>> and
>>> > your expectations.
>>> >
>>> > It's important to recognize that your expectations are the problem
>>> > here.  Most past that and we're done!
>>> >
>>> >> (In fact i have helped many customers of mine move off
>>> >> my space to their own allocation) A justification of 'we have ssl's'
>>> >> is not longer valid in my opinion, you can use SNI or something
>>> >> similar to overcome the need for a IP for a SSL, however people still
>>> >> seem to use this excuse to gain IP space, I see it everyday in
>>> >> hosting.
>>> >
>>> > It's not supposed to be hard.  They're not "making excuses" to gain
>>> > space;  it's actually -your- policies they're trying to find loopholes
>>> > in to carry out the business you're supposed to be enabling, not
>>> APNIC's
>>> > policies.
>>> >
>>> >> Obviously in your world of ISP land it's a lot different. But MANY in
>>> >> hosting are seeing this horrible trend.
>>> >
>>> > Why is it "horrible"?
>>> >
>>> >> I'm now going to enjoy my beer and Friday night and will look forward
>>> >> to attending the next APNIC policy meeting
>>> >
>>> > Excellent!  Here it is:  http://conference.apnic.net/36
>>> >
>>> >> armed with example
>>> >> companies hoarding IP's that have knowingly ripped off the application
>>> >> policy.
>>> >
>>> > Where "ripped off" seems to be the same as "complied with."
>>> >
>>> > Unless you're accusing APNIC of incompetently executing the policies,
>>> > and thereby granting address space to people who shouldn't have it.
>>> >
>>> > Is that what you're doing?
>>> >
>>> >> Remember I support the genuine people that need IP's
>>> >
>>> > Yep, by *YOUR* interpretation of their "need."
>>> >
>>> > Other people see needs differently, and they vote at APNIC meetings
>>> too.
>>> >
>>> >  - mark
>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
>>
>>
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