[AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

Fri Jul 19 10:38:49 EST 2013

I agree that G.711 will carry the traffic (Telstra’s SDH ISDN is proof of this) however over which protocol?  RTP is flakey (the best I could ever achieve was 2400bps) and I will be surprised to learn of anyone successfully carrying 56Kbps modem traffic over an ATA.

Fax is ok as we have T.38 to carry it.  I’m yet to see ADEMCO successfully carried over SIP.

Simon Booth
Senior Pre-Sales Engineer

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From: Paul Brooks [mailto:pbrooks at layer10.com.au]
Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013 6:45 PM
To: Simon Booth; Brad Gould; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

This one is untrue - using the G.711 codec to generate a 64kbps stream, modems work just fine over VoIP, as do faxes.
________________________________
From: Simon Booth <Simon.Booth at speechnetworks.com.au<mailto:Simon.Booth at speechnetworks.com.au>>
Sent: Thu Jul 18 12:44:53 AEST 2013
To: Brad Gould <bradley at internode.com.au<mailto:bradley at internode.com.au>>, "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

Last time I checked the Foxtel boxes were still using dialup modems to order movies.  As modems don't work across IP traffic (SIP, H.323, etc) Foxtel will need to active the Ethernet ports to work across fibre.  Does anyone know if Foxtel allow access to the Ethernet port yet?

Security systems are also ruled out as they generally use ADEMCO security protocol to connect back to the monitoring stations.  ADEMCO is basically hi speed DTMF which can't be successfully carried over any existing IP protocols.  This will create a large market for alarm system installers as they quickly upgrade the Securitel or ADEMCO systems (probably 99.9% of alarm systems over 3 years old).  The same will apply to personal emergency diallers that send location information to monitoring stations.

In a DR situation the only way to maintain dial tone is via battery backup.  This can be located at the telephone exchange (traditional PSTN), NTU or ATA.  DC conti

 nuity

can't be provided over a fibre tail so the DR argument dies a little.

He only real benefit of the POTS port on either a carrier supplied ATA or the POTS port on the NBN termination equipment is connection to legacy telephones/answering machines/cordless phones.

Boothy

-----Original Message-----
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net]<mailto:[mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net]> On Behalf Of Brad Gould
Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013 12:25 PM
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

Emergency services.  Battery backup + POTS port in the NTD means you get dialtone in a blackout.

PSTN port also means easier transition (alarm systems, foxtel, etc).

On 18/07/2013 11:48 AM, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:

S

 o I

have listened to it.

Interesting.
My initial question (and show how much I have been following it), but PSTN and battery why ?

Also the deal with Telstra do they have some pricing deal with NBN co... wonder if they have a fixed cost / port locked in there somewhere.

....

-----Original Message-----
From: Beeson, Ayden [mailto:ABeeson at csu.edu.au]<mailto:[mailto:ABeeson at csu.edu.au]>
Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013 12:09 PM
To: Joseph Goldman; Alex Samad - Yieldbroker
Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: RE: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day
yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

While I get the viewpoint of making it cheaper, I definitely agree
that receiving a standard Ethernet copper interface is easier for
most people, maybe the NTD could be made optional if requeste

 d (as

could the power
supply)

However given that we are already looking at the possibility of using
one of the 4 ports for Government services, I can already see 2 or
even 3 of my ports being used when it arrives here and most
"everyday" users that have just one DSL connection now will find
themselves with at least 2 ports being used on the NBN in the short term.

The multiple ports are a good idea, possibly the additional cost is
too much (at least initially) and could be passed onto the consumer
to a degree with an "upgrade" cost or requiring your purchase of a
GPON capable router instead, both have positives and negatives and my
leaning at the moment is that the
4 ports is (from my viewpoint) worth the cost.....

Thanks,
Ayden Beeson

-----Original Message-----
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net]<mailto:[mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net]> On Behalf Of
Joseph Goldman
Sent:

Thursday, 18 July 2013 11:57 AM
To: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker
Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day
yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

I agree with your perception, hence why the VDSL vs Fiber roll-out,
and the 2 costs involved in each (claiming VDSL as a cheaper option,
but slower speeds because that is 'enough') I pick the Fiber roll-out.

The argument is purely on the points made in the presentation on the
fact of information (That I personally didn't know previously) that
NBNCo had a large outlay in having these boxes specifically designed
for them, which also locks them into this hardware vendor.

I agree on the premise that multi ports for multi-use is great, but
the presentation is highly geared towards doing it cheaper up front.
The fiber in the ground is what gives us the future commodity of
enabling more and m

 ore

speeds as we need, the medium would no longer
be the limiting factor, and it would be much cheaper to do the single
point roll-out up-front and a more gradual 'as-needed' rollout on
multi-port devices over the next few decades.

Again, all just my opinion :).

On 18/07/13 11:44, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:

I haven't watched the video, but would like to comment on this reply.

My perception has been in this debate. Is that there is a side that
says why do we need much more than what we have. People should be
happy with 20Mb/s what more can you do ...

I think with the amount of money being spent, it should be a case of
doing It right, still trying to get the best bang per buck, but
maybe lowering the bar for this project.

From my understanding once laid fibre's

  life

time is long enough
for new reasons to use it to emerge

This to me is like building railway lines around Aus or US,
industrialisation Building highways... etc

But who knows... what is going to turn up around the corner !

Alex

-----Original Message-----
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net]<mailto:[mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net]> On Behalf Of
Joseph Goldman
Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013 11:34 AM
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day
yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

I thought the same, as someone who currently has 2 NBN RSP's on my
NTD it is a good fit and quite easy. My preferred routers are also
only ethernet so I'd be locked in to a more limited range of
routers that can terminate GPON, or have a deal like I

  had to

do
when DSL was my only connection, which is a small single port
device to interface with the network (e.g. ADSL Modem) that bridges
through to my ethernet router to do the real grunt (NAT/Firewall etc).

But on the flip side it is very common for a house to only have a
single copper line in, and those rare people who require multiple
connections pay for the benefit of doing so through adding a second
line, which can run up to $299 at Telstra build-out cost I believe.
So given that most dwellings would only need a single provider at
any one time, I would say those who are in the specific need for
multiple connections would have to pay for a second 'line' like any
other customer

in current networks.

The cost benefit Simon talks about for the majority of households
would far outweigh the extra work required for the small minority
that would request such a setup.

/2c

On 18/07/13 11:28, Andrew Jones wrote:

Good presentation, and while my first reaction was to agree with
Simon, the issue I see with this is that unless each dwelling is
able to have multiple strands of fibre delivered, the first RSP to
sell a service has a monopoly on the residence's connections. With
the current NBN design, a second (or third) RSP can use another of
the ports. On the current system with services delivered primarily
over phone lines, we can have second provider on a separate line.
I think that only offering a single GPON handoff to each premises <

 br

/>could reduce competition and increase provider lock-in.

On 18.07.2013 11:15, Greg McLennan wrote:

+1 Watch the 20 video.
-------
On 18/07/2013 11:12 AM, Michael Andreas Schipp wrote:

Recommend you spend the 20 min to listen - good stuff.

FROM: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net]<mailto:[mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net]> ON

BEHALF

OF

George Fong
SENT: Thursday, 18 July 2013 10:46 AM
TO: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
SUBJECT: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day
yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

Hi All,

If you haven't already seen it, here's a link to Simon's thought

provoking and challenging presentation at Comms Day. Is NBNCo
doing it

too hard, too complex and too expensive?

http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-

budget/

[1]

Cheers

g.

--
Doing Dry July again! https://au.dryjuly.com/profile/georgefong
[3]

Just remember, wherever you go .... there you are.

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Links:
------
[1]
http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/
[2] http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
[3] https://au.dryjuly.com/profile/georgefong
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