[AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

Simon Booth Simon.Booth at speechnetworks.com.au
Thu Jul 18 12:44:53 EST 2013 

Last time I checked the Foxtel boxes were still using dialup modems to order movies.  As modems don't work across IP traffic (SIP, H.323, etc) Foxtel will need to active the Ethernet ports to work across fibre.  Does anyone know if Foxtel allow access to the Ethernet port yet?

Security systems are also ruled out as they generally use ADEMCO security protocol to connect back to the monitoring stations.  ADEMCO is basically hi speed DTMF which can't be successfully carried over any existing IP protocols.  This will create a large market for alarm system installers as they quickly upgrade the Securitel or ADEMCO systems (probably 99.9% of alarm systems over 3 years old).  The same will apply to personal emergency diallers that send location information to monitoring stations.

In a DR situation the only way to maintain dial tone is via battery backup.  This can be located at the telephone exchange (traditional PSTN), NTU or ATA.  DC continuity can't be provided over a fibre tail so the DR argument dies a little. 

He only real benefit of the POTS port on either a carrier supplied ATA or the POTS port on the NBN termination equipment is connection to legacy telephones/answering machines/cordless phones.

Boothy

-----Original Message-----
From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Brad Gould
Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013 12:25 PM
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices

Emergency services.  Battery backup + POTS port in the NTD means you get dialtone in a blackout.

PSTN port also means easier transition (alarm systems, foxtel, etc).



On 18/07/2013 11:48 AM, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:
> So I have listened to it.
>
> Interesting.
> My initial question (and show how much I have been following it), but PSTN and battery why ?
>
> Also the deal with Telstra do they have some pricing deal with NBN co... wonder if they have a fixed cost / port locked in there somewhere.
>
> ....
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Beeson, Ayden [mailto:ABeeson at csu.edu.au]
>> Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013 12:09 PM
>> To: Joseph Goldman; Alex Samad - Yieldbroker
>> Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>> Subject: RE: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day 
>> yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices
>>
>> While I get the viewpoint of making it cheaper, I definitely agree 
>> that receiving a standard Ethernet copper interface is easier for 
>> most people, maybe the NTD could be made optional if requested (as 
>> could the power
>> supply)
>>
>> However given that we are already looking at the possibility of using 
>> one of the 4 ports for Government services, I can already see 2 or 
>> even 3 of my ports being used when it arrives here and most 
>> "everyday" users that have just one DSL connection now will find 
>> themselves with at least 2 ports being used on the NBN in the short term.
>>
>> The multiple ports are a good idea, possibly the additional cost is 
>> too much (at least initially) and could be passed onto the consumer 
>> to a degree with an "upgrade" cost or requiring your purchase of a 
>> GPON capable router instead, both have positives and negatives and my 
>> leaning at the moment is that the
>> 4 ports is (from my viewpoint) worth the cost.....
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ayden Beeson
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of 
>> Joseph Goldman
>> Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013 11:57 AM
>> To: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker
>> Cc: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day 
>> yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices
>>
>> I agree with your perception, hence why the VDSL vs Fiber roll-out, 
>> and the 2 costs involved in each (claiming VDSL as a cheaper option, 
>> but slower speeds because that is 'enough') I pick the Fiber roll-out.
>>
>> The argument is purely on the points made in the presentation on the 
>> fact of information (That I personally didn't know previously) that 
>> NBNCo had a large outlay in having these boxes specifically designed 
>> for them, which also locks them into this hardware vendor.
>>
>> I agree on the premise that multi ports for multi-use is great, but 
>> the presentation is highly geared towards doing it cheaper up front. 
>> The fiber in the ground is what gives us the future commodity of 
>> enabling more and more speeds as we need, the medium would no longer 
>> be the limiting factor, and it would be much cheaper to do the single 
>> point roll-out up-front and a more gradual 'as-needed' rollout on 
>> multi-port devices over the next few decades.
>>
>> Again, all just my opinion :).
>>
>> On 18/07/13 11:44, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker wrote:
>>> I haven't watched the video, but would like to comment on this reply.
>>>
>>> My perception has been in this debate. Is that there is a side that 
>>> says why do we need much more than what we have. People should be 
>>> happy with 20Mb/s what more can you do ...
>>>
>>> I think with the amount of money being spent, it should be a case of 
>>> doing It right, still trying to get the best bang per buck, but 
>>> maybe lowering the bar for this project.
>>>
>>>   From my understanding once laid fibre's life time is long enough 
>>> for new reasons to use it to emerge
>>>
>>> This to me is like building railway lines around Aus or US, 
>>> industrialisation Building highways... etc
>>>
>>> But who knows... what is going to turn up around the corner !
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of 
>>>> Joseph Goldman
>>>> Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013 11:34 AM
>>>> To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day 
>>>> yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices
>>>>
>>>> I thought the same, as someone who currently has 2 NBN RSP's on my 
>>>> NTD it is a good fit and quite easy. My preferred routers are also 
>>>> only ethernet so I'd be locked in to a more limited range of 
>>>> routers that can terminate GPON, or have a deal like I had to do 
>>>> when DSL was my only connection, which is a small single port 
>>>> device to interface with the network (e.g. ADSL Modem) that bridges 
>>>> through to my ethernet router to do the real grunt (NAT/Firewall etc).
>>>>
>>>> But on the flip side it is very common for a house to only have a 
>>>> single copper line in, and those rare people who require multiple 
>>>> connections pay for the benefit of doing so through adding a second 
>>>> line, which can run up to $299 at Telstra build-out cost I believe.
>>>> So given that most dwellings would only need a single provider at 
>>>> any one time, I would say those who are in the specific need for 
>>>> multiple connections would have to pay for a second 'line' like any 
>>>> other customer
>> in current networks.
>>>> The cost benefit Simon talks about for the majority of households 
>>>> would far outweigh the extra work required for the small minority 
>>>> that would request such a setup.
>>>>
>>>> /2c
>>>>
>>>> On 18/07/13 11:28, Andrew Jones wrote:
>>>>> Good presentation, and while my first reaction was to agree with 
>>>>> Simon, the issue I see with this is that unless each dwelling is 
>>>>> able to have multiple strands of fibre delivered, the first RSP to 
>>>>> sell a service has a monopoly on the residence's connections. With 
>>>>> the current NBN design, a second (or third) RSP can use another of 
>>>>> the ports. On the current system with services delivered primarily 
>>>>> over phone lines, we can have second provider on a separate line. 
>>>>> I think that only offering a single GPON handoff to each premises 
>>>>> could reduce competition and increase provider lock-in.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18.07.2013 11:15, Greg McLennan wrote:
>>>>>> +1 Watch the 20 video.
>>>>>>    -------
>>>>>>    On 18/07/2013 11:12 AM, Michael Andreas Schipp wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recommend you spend the 20 min to listen - good stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FROM: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] ON
>> BEHALF
>>>> OF
>>>>>>> George Fong
>>>>>>> SENT: Thursday, 18 July 2013 10:46 AM
>>>>>>> TO: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
>>>>>>> SUBJECT: [AusNOG] Simon Hackett's presentation from Comms Day 
>>>>>>> yesterday - NBN fibre on copper prices
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you haven't already seen it, here's a link to Simon's thought
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> provoking and challenging presentation at Comms Day. Is NBNCo 
>>>>>>> doing it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> too hard, too complex and too expensive?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-
>> budget/
>>>> [1]
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> g.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Doing Dry July again! https://au.dryjuly.com/profile/georgefong
>>>>>>> [3]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just remember, wherever you go .... there you are.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content 
>>>>>>> by MAILSCANNER AT LATERAL PLAINS [4], and is believed to be clean.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> AusNOG mailing list
>>>>>>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>>>>>>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog [2]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Links:
>>>>>> ------
>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>> http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/
>>>>>> [2] http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>>>>> [3] https://au.dryjuly.com/profile/georgefong
>>>>>> [4] http://www.lateralplains.com/
>>>>>>
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Brad Gould, Network Engineer
Internode
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