[AusNOG] Why No Form Of Censorship Is A Good Thing

Sat Jul 24 21:02:42 EST 2010

On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 19:00:03 +1000
Narelle <narellec at gmail.com> wrote:

> You're mixing the issues.
> 
> This document is *not* about censorship but about tracking online behaviour.
> 
> It is not possible therefore for an independent citizen to asssess the
> potential cost and impost upon users
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I disagree with that. I don't need to see the document to know the
consequences of recording and storing online behaviour.

The problem is that if the government decide to prosecute you for
something you didn't do, all they need to do is come up with a crime
that fits the data, now "evidence", that they've been collecting on you
in the past. In the real world, evidence collecting only starts once
you're suspected of or arrested for committing a crime. This measure
fundamentally changes the presumption of innocence, i.e. "innocent
until proven guilty", into "eventually you might be guilty of a crime,
so we'll collect evidence just in case". That's a big step away from a
presumption of innocence in my opinion.

> and ISPs because this document is
> thus restricted. Also no independent or public comparison with the Eu
> can actually be made unless one of the ISPs leaks the material. No
> independent cost/benefit analysis can be made.
> 
> This is not the only report that is being suppressed due to the
> election. The Murray-Darling water discussion paper is another eg.
> 
> Sadly the political debate has reached a level where point scoring and
> FUD has more merit than ideas and policy, so it just gets worse...
> 
> The baby is well and truly out with the bathwater.
> 
> While it may be true that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance,
> if one's [so-called] civil society sinks to the level of control of a
> totalitarian state you have already lost.
> 
> 
> Sadly,
> 
> 
> Narelle
> 
> On 7/23/10, Sean K. Finn <sean.finn at ozservers.com.au> wrote:
> > Begin with asking perhaps why Gov't censored 90% of document relating to
> > censoring and what they have to accomplish by stifling 'un-necessary
> > debate', and ask them to detail why debate is deemed to be 'un-necessary'.
> > More like Un-wanted holding-to-account-for-actions.
> >
> > http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/technology/technology-news/no-minister-90-of-web-snoop-document-censored-to-stop--premature-unnecessary-debate-20100722-10mxo.html?autostart=1
> >
> > " The federal government has censored approximately 90 per cent of a secret
> > document outlining its controversial plans to snoop on Australians' web
> > surfing, obtained under freedom of information (FoI) laws, out of fear the
> > document could cause "premature unnecessary debate".
> > "
> >
> > http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/web-snooping-policy-shrouded-in-secrecy-20100617-yi1u.html
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
> > [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Ramsay, Paul
> > Sent: Friday, 23 July 2010 3:30 PM
> > To: ausnog
> > Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Why No Form Of Censorship Is A Good Thing
> >
> > I came across this today, maybe a good place to ask a question!
> >
> > Minister Conroy to address AIIA members on NBN/Digital Economy
> >
> > LAST CHANCE TO REGISTER BEFORE CLOSE OF BUSINESS, FRIDAY JULY 23, 2010
> > With the announcement of the election, Minister Conroy has chosen this
> > forum as an opportunity to make significant comment on policies and
> > strategies for the NBN/Digital Economy.  He has requested that he be
> > given a longer speaking time and also requested that the media be
> > invited to attend and ask him questions.  This event is not to be
> > missed.  Registrations will be closing at 5.30pm sharp Friday 23 July,
> > so do not hesitate.
> >
> > http://www.aiia.com.au/event_details.aspx?ID=5cdc6c4a-ea6d-df11-b187-005
> > 056b917dd
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
> > [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Brad Gould
> > Sent: Friday, 23 July 2010 2:24 PM
> > To: Kai
> > Cc: ausnog
> > Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Why No Form Of Censorship Is A Good Thing
> >
> > Lets censor them to protest censorship?
> >
> > Freedom of speech (something we have no actual right to in Australia,
> > but pretty much all believe in) cuts both ways.
> >
> > To the issue at hand today, I agree its completely comical, and at its
> > heart, diabolical.  I hope the SMH appeals the decision, and I suspect
> > any independent arbitrator would have a field day with this.
> >
> > Brad
> >
> > On 23/07/2010 13:43, Kai wrote:
> >> Shortly before ISP's on AusNOG voluntary decided to filter federal
> > government, ACL and their associates and redirect them to a page that
> > tells them to keep their grubby hands off our freedom? or are we just
> > going to sit on our hands and let it happen?
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Matthew Zobel"<matthew.zobel at gmail.com>
> >> To: ausnog at ausnog.net
> >> Sent: Friday, 23 July, 2010 2:02:00 PM GMT +10:00 Canberra / Melbourne
> > / Sydney
> >> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Why No Form Of Censorship Is A Good Thing
> >>
> >>
> >> When exactly did this country become a police state?
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 23, 2010 at 1:11 PM, Scott Weeks<  surfer at mauigateway.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- vk6ksj at westnet.com.au wrote:
> >> This is only going to get worse. Are they actually going to listen if
> > we make enough noise?
> >> ---------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, it appears it's going to get worse and no they're not going to
> > listen:
> >>
> >> "The government has been consulting with the internet industry over
> > the proposal...All parties to the consultations have been sworn to
> > secrecy"
> >>
> >>
> >> scott
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >> ---------------
> >> ----------------
> >> ------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> >> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
> >>
> >>
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> >> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
> >
> > --
> > Brad Gould, Network Engineer
> > Internode
> > PO Box 284, Rundle Mall 5000
> > Level 5, 162 Grenfell Street, Adelaide 5000
> > P: 08 8228 2999  F: 08 8235 6999
> > bradley at internode.com.au; http://www.internode.on.net/
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> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> Narelle
> narellec at gmail.com
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