[AusNOG] Flogging a dead horse

[Tim McCullagh]

Correction
"Why should the MAJORITY have the hide to demand, that
everyone else takes a price increase so that they can get something they are
 currently not prepared to pay for?"

should read

"Why should the MINORITY have the hide to demand, that
everyone else takes a price increase so that they can get something they are
currently not prepared to pay for?"

I got distracted by the phone

regards

Tim
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim McCullagh" <technical at halenet.com.au>
To: "Matthew Moyle-Croft" <mmc at internode.com.au>
Cc: <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Flogging a dead horse


> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Matthew Moyle-Croft" <mmc at internode.com.au>
>
>
>>Tim,
>>The demand for faster services exists.
>
> I don't doubt it exists, but is it enought to justify $43 billion or more
> investment?
> If it exists Answer the question , How many people are demanding speed?
> What percentage of the market specifically.
> Your continual denial to answer that question suggest you don't know.  You
> should make yourself aware of some of the demand data, you may find you
> think differently about it.  I know what it is in my local area. People 
> are
> moving from ADSL to mobile wireless becasue they can save $5 per month and
> it still does everything they need.  I do have doubts about the long term
> sustainability of such a move.
>
> Also remember the companies Commindico, Onetel etc.   They built networks 
> on
> the basis of if we build it they will come.  Where are they now.  What 
> about
> the power company in Western Australia.  They did a FTTH network on their
> poles, it is now closed down.   There needs to be some thought go into NBN
> before the mistakes of the past are repeated again.  NBNco needs to come
> clean with pricing and a business plan, then many will be able to make an
> informed decision about whether they want it and demand figures will be
> estimateable.  Until then it is a GIANT CON.    It the demand truely 
> existed
> someone would be building it now.
>
> That is not to say that there should not be focus on addressing needs in
> areas where the market has failed and we should be deploying next 
> generation
> solutions in those areas.  However I am sure that will not cost $43 
> billion.
>
>
>> The constant denial that it doesn't and the demand isn't going to grow is
>> tiring as you know it's not true.
>
> The demand may be growing and as it reaches a point where it is viable to
> justify investment then this will be met in most areas as it has beeen 
> since
> 1995 onwards.  At present the demand is not there to justify a $43 billion
> investment.   For those that want fast service you can get them now from 
> any
> number of suppliers.  The issue is that some of those demanding such
> services don't want to pay for them at the current market rates, which is
> exactly the point I am trying to make for the majority of Australians when
> it comes to the NBN.  Why should the majority have the hide to demand, 
> that
> everyone else takes a price increase so that they can get something they 
> are
> currently not prepared to pay for?
>
>>/me hopes you're going to be vocal about the government spending same 
>>kinds
>>of dollars on a few ships,
>>submarines and fighter planes over the next decade.
>
> No I am definately not.  I have some idea what role those ships planes and
> other equipment and personel are used for.
> Just in case you don't know
> Ships patrol our waters to ensure the integrety of our borders so that 
> such
> things as illegal boats don't bring people, drugs and deseases to our
> country.
> For thirty seconds imagine what would happen if we didn't patrol our 
> borders
> and someone brought in animals from indoneasia with rabbies or foot and
> mouth and desease in.  That would cost this country a bucket load more 
> than
> the cost of a few boats.  The beef industry would be decimated for a start
> and trying to eradicate it in places like kakadu would be a tall order.
> Imagine what rabies would do to native wildlife.
> Planes they are also used for the purpose above, they are also used in 
> times
> of natural disasters to ferry necessities to where they are required.
> etc etc etc.  It may pay to see what defence actually does.  On top of 
> that
> it employs a lot of people in your home state and mine.  It trains a lot 
> of
> Australians which then contribute to the society in other areas.  It
> develops technologies that serve to improve civilian technologies.  Think
> for a moment about the reseach that has gone into such things as batteries
> used in subs and satelites.  These technologies end up in yours and my 
> daily
> lives.
> Please don't use such offensive examples.  Your focus on defense is like
> saying I am the only one that matters I want my broadband and I don't care
> if we can't defend ourselves as long as I get my broadband.  I know that 
> is
> not what you mean.  I understand it is all about getting a balance.
>
>>Certainly if we can't afford NBN then we can't afford to spend the same
>>money on defence as well.
>
> Your kidding aren't you.
>
>> Still I see no alternate plan other than "hopefully technology will save
>> us from ourselves".
>
> I don't see to much thought going into this in your arguments either.  I
> haven't seen you rebutt my arguments by addressing the issues.
>
> I guess someone has to play the devils advocate
>
> As someone pointed out to me today (thankyou) I am one of those that has
> invested my own $ in infrastructure and some others are the techs that
> install and maintain some of the infrastructure and we both see it from
> different perspectives.  That is good, it all adds to the understanding.
>
> regards
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>