[AusNOG] NBN Co Layer 2 vs. Layer 3 Services

Thu Apr 22 16:32:45 EST 2010

Hey Paul,

No, what led to my question was both Tony Hill (as ISOC-AU President) giving testimony to a Senate Select Committee on the NBN where he was pushing really hard for Layer 3 to be considered.  See http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S12976.pdf as well as some discussion on the gogonet forums (IPv6) at http://gogonet.gogo6.com/group/v6inaustralia?commentId=3731159%3AComment%3A50299&xg_source=msg_com_group

I am unhappy that ISOC-AU has chosen to push a view - to the point of testimony to the Senate Select Committee - which doesn't seem very well thought out and really seems based on an agenda of promoting IPv6 adoption.  Now I am 110% an IPv6 promoter and spend half my days talking about it, but I really don't see what it has to do with the NBN as the service providers should be handing this component themselves... so sell it to them.  If there indeed was a multi-cast network being proposed by the NBN then hell yeah, convince them that is should be a ipv6 only based one.

As an ISOC business member and having multiple staff here who are members... who are all wondering what ISOC-AU is doing - we are concerned about their seeming lack of understanding of how the NBN is proposed to function and how and where IPv6 (or anything else Layer 3 and above) fits in.  A lack of understanding is one thing... god knows I make my share of mistakes and still have a lot to learn - but pushing that at a Senate Select Committee is worrying.

If ISOC-AU is trying to accomplish something that I don't understand, or have missed the point on, I really want to know.

...Skeeve

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Skeeve Stevens, CEO/Technical Director
eintellego Pty Ltd - The Networking Specialists
skeeve at eintellego.net / www.eintellego.net
Phone: 1300 753 383, Fax: (+612) 8572 9954
Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 / skype://skeeve
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From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Paul Brooks
Sent: Thursday, 22 April 2010 4:10 PM
To: ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] NBN Co Layer 2 vs. Layer 3 Services

I've had several people bend my ear as to why they think NBNCo should be layer 3/IP, coming mainly from ATUG and end-user land.
Most of it was from several months ago before CA and NBNCo put out the consultation papers outlining why we thought Layer 2 was the way to go.

I haven't heard any particularly persuasive arguments, or a clear articulation of the problem that would be solved by NBNCo being 'Layer 3', and I would have hoped that the consultation papers would explain why NBNCo doing Layer 2 didn't mean the Layer 3 services from RSPs would be limited.

For fairness, one of the arguments was around traffic efficiency - that in a Layer-2 model, traffic from (say) a factory connected to one RSP that wanted to get to (say) a business partner located physically right next door that was connected to a different RSP would not follow an optimal path across the street, but will be forced to travel all the way out to an interconnect point and through RSP1, then be handed over to RSP2, then have to travel all the way back to the recipient - possibly hundreds of kilometres.  The guys advocating for Layer3 seem to assume that NBNCo's routers would allow the traffic to cut-through and stay entirely local, and would not have to hit either of the RSPs core networks at all. I remain unconvinced.

I note Phil Dobbie has just released a Twisted Wire episode looking at Layer 3, that I haven't listened to yet - Skeeve, is the Twisted Wire podcast that led to your question?

P.

On 22/04/2010 9:22 AM, McDonald Richards wrote:
I've been to a couple of their workshops now and from what I can tell, NBN Co have no intention of providing a layer 3 service. Where are the other voices and are they people with clue or just opinion pieces from industry commentators?

Macca

From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net> [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Skeeve Stevens
Sent: Thursday, 22 April 2010 9:03 AM
To: ausnog at ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog at ausnog.net>
Subject: [AusNOG] NBN Co Layer 2 vs. Layer 3 Services

Hey all,

Just a quick question.

At the moment there is a lot of talk of NBN and whether they are going to deliver Layer 2 or Layer 3 services.

I am a little confused about what is meant by that.  In that as ISP's, I would assume that we would only want Layer 2 services from them? Just in kind of a DSL Wholesale/Ethernet wholesale/etc situation that we already have.

Most of our ISP customers would be happy if the NBN operated just like the current wholesale models out there at the moment.  Little ISP calls his aggregator and says he wants a NBN VLAN to this address which they get from NBNCo (if directly if you are big enough and can afford to interconnect yourself), which is turned on and presented at an aggregation port... very much like taking wholesale ethernet from Pipe, Nextgen, Telstra and others today.

This makes sense to me.

But there is a bunch of voices saying they want the NBN Co to do Layer 3... and I am not quite sure what is meant by that?  Users buy bandwidth off the NBN Co? Turning them into a retail ISP?

If this seems like a stupid question, I am sorry about that... but there are some voices who have access to presenting their views and are doing so about NBN should be doing Layer 3... and I am trying to find some understanding about what is actually being suggested.

...Skeeve

--
Skeeve Stevens, CEO/Technical Director
eintellego Pty Ltd - The Networking Specialists
skeeve at eintellego.net<mailto:skeeve at eintellego.net> / www.eintellego.net<http://www.eintellego.net>
Phone: 1300 753 383, Fax: (+612) 8572 9954
Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 / skype://skeeve
www.linkedin.com/in/skeeve<http://www.linkedin.com/in/skeeve> ; facebook.com/eintellego
--
NOC, NOC, who's there?

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