[AusNOG] IPv4

Rod Veith rod at rb.net.au
Mon Mar 4 15:22:06 EST 2013



From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
[mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Van Der Meulen, Mark
Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013 1:21 AM
To: Jared Hirst; Skeeve Stevens
Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4


This is not directed to anyone in particular.


Whilst everyone else gets on the "I'm thinking about everyone in the rest of
the world where they are so underprivileged, and I'm also helping your
grandmother get IPv6 on her iPad, blah blah" in attempts to passive
aggressively big note how great they are without sounding self centered, I
would like to add my perspective. The perspective of the white male in his
mid twenties who grew up in an affluent country and who is for the most
part, quite self centered.. (since apparently that matters when discussing
IPv4 resource policy now)


I'll start off by saying that really the whole " you think you have it bad,
you should see everyone else in the third world" argument is simply evasive
behavior. Also, whilst you're pushing how selfless you all are in helping
others, think on this:  If you want to take credit for being the persons who
have been trying to make the internet a better place through your policies
regarding IPv4 and IPv6, then you also need to take the credit when flack is
handed out about your inability to properly handle IPv4 resource management,
and how the bad decisions that you may have been part of are affecting


>From this point on in my email, I wish for the "IPv6 is here and IPv4 is
long gone" argument to remain irrelevant and for those of you who are
defending APNIC to try look at things a little more objectively. There are
apparently(according to this rather long email thread) ~16,384 /22's left,
and to some people that's a lot of IPv4 left - not only that, there is a lot
of unused/unjustified/unneeded space out there so let's talk about that for


I work with a number of corporates in banking and finance, and in addition
to this a number of small ISP's and hosting companies trying to get by. Most
of the small/medium sized companies I work with are providing IPv6 in a dual
stack, and for the most part are limited to their /22 or less, which they
have received in the past 1-3 years. On the other hand working with the
larger companies, I see absolutely no intention whatsoever of moving to
IPv6. They purely run IPv4 environments and show blatant disregard for the
amount of IPv4 resources they consume through their various legal entities.
Generally, this is because of a number of reasons:


a)      They simply don't care. They have far more address space than they
need, and they have "better things" to do with their time than manage a
migration to IPv6.

b)      They don't understand IPv6, and are concerned about its security

c)      Management would never approve a project to IPv6 as it simply isn't
in their interest commercially.

d)      It is a pain when dealing with compliance.

e)      Why?? Everything works right now, so why make life harder for
ourselves? We are never going to use all of our allocations.


So on one hand I see, large corporate A with more address space than
required, abusing the system because they can't be bothered(amongst other
reasons) and it doesn't make commercially sense to. Then I see small company
B implementing IPv6 but is severely limited ini its growth abilities because
of the lack of IPv4 available to it - why is this? Because if they are
selling to consumers, the consumer wants a working, no fuss connection that
works with everything and with minimal fuss. If they don't get the minimal
fuss, they can and will take their business elsewhere in a twinkling of an
eye. If they are selling to businesses, then there is a good chance that the
business customers have a very similar attitude to that of company A, in
which case they only want IPv4 services. So you get the picture, even though
they have IPv6, no one wants it because they don't care enough about it, and
you can't grow a business off the back of a product that no one wants.


My point here is that companies who are abusing the system are actually
making themselves more commercially viable - they are lowering or
maintaining capital and operating expenditure and for the most part making
sound commercial decisions. What this means materially for the companies not
in the same position(quite likely because of timing) is that they are forced
to adopt a strategy which can potentially make them less commercially viable
because they are the ones which need to increase CAPEX and OPEX, without any
real prospect of those investments returning profit or increased customer


Let me make this very clear, the very same policies that have allowed the
company which has obtained excessive address space through a registries
mismanagement to be more commercially viable are the very same policies that
are limiting the commercial viability of another company. I would say that
by definition, this makes the policies of the registrars anti-competitive in


Is it the problem of the small/medium/large business that the address space
was previously mismanaged? Is it to something to do with their margins or
their own lack of planning? Absolutely not, they are generally making an
effort at their own expense to implement other solutions, when often times
companies who are abusing the system clearly are not attempting to implement
other solutions, and the fact that a company may or may not have the margins
to buy more space on the open market is largely irrelevant, they need to be
given an equal opportunity to grow - just like a company buying new IPv4
resources or a corporate who already owns lots of IPv4 resources is given or
has been given that opportunity.


At the end of the day APNIC and the other registrars were around long before
many of these companies started doing business and long before many of these
companies even knew what an IP Address was and how it affected their
business model. They have been responsible for the allocation of address
space for quite some time and hence these registrars must take full
responsibility for their lack of judgment and lack of ability to properly
administer allocations - they are being paid to have the very foresight that
they have proved they never had(and I'm not talking about 20 years ago, I'm
talking about in the last 5 years). The new/middle aged companies trying
grow are simply casualties of a poorly designed and executed set of
policies, IPv6 won't fix it for them now and they likely won't be viable
long enough for it to fix it for them later. Higher margins/CGNAT/etc are
not solutions that will provide long term fixes, and are not solutions
commercially competitive enough to find a place in a business plan.


This is my point, as an outside observer of how the APNIC policy influences
the Australian market that I work in, I have good reason to believe that the
APNIC policies are cultivating anti-competitive environments. Due to the
very nature of the beast in that those who govern it are also those who
benefit from it, I don't believe it will change or can change.


Full Disclosure: I very recently applied for IP space through APNIC for one
of the smaller companies I work with who will very likely run out of space
within 6 months of having an allocation, so I am biased(quite clearly, given
the above email!)

Full Disclosure: I run IPv6 at home and everywhere I can, so please don't
try discredit me because you found someone I work with who doesn't run IPv6
- it's poor form and proved you have no interest in correcting bad policies.

Full Disclosure: My grammar is pretty average, even for an engineer. Sorry
if this hurt your eyes.


Lastly, I'm young and feel empowered by voicing my opinion on matters I have
only have half the picture on. So ignore me as you wish.





From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
[mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Jared Hirst
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:20 PM
To: Skeeve Stevens
Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4


I don't outsource, I'm there making a difference by direct employment,
creating jobs, giving opportunities and teaching about the networks we run
here such as v6 etc, they are not aware if v6 yet and I think that's more
important than anything to educate them right? You've been saying all day v4
is dead.


You did have a go directly at me, you raved on how good you were by
employing 7 staff offshore and then asked me what I was doing. I never
accused you of not doing anything for a developing world did I??


Unfortunately I'm not even going to waste my time reply to the rest of your
email, clearly you have not read any of mine properly otherwise you would
have seen that at no point was I asking or implying that anything was about
'me me me' ill say it again, I can afford the space if I need to buy it, not
once have I said I wanted the low rate for me or anything. I merely stated
that the low price in AU will be abused. Again get your facts right before




Jared Hirst

Servers Australia Pty Ltd

Phone: 1300 788 862

Direct: (02) 4307 4205

E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au

On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens
<skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:



My point was not what you do or don't do... but your attitude is screaming
'me me me'. Lots of people here use outsourced staff from developing nations
(it's not called Third World anymore), so it is nothing amazing. You pay
people to do a job. Sure, they might live well, but what are you doing to
change India itself? What are you doing to change the future and make things


I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in India... I know quite
reasonably what is going on over there... and so do other people who have
invested the time, like James Spenceley who has a tonne of dealing with
them, especially over the last couple of years in their fight to setup their
own IN-NIC.


I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to affect change
overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the developing world, when
nothing is further from the truth.


I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and that the lower APNIC
fees will help them... you are only talking about yourself, and how you are
affected and that one of the solutions should be that fees are raised.


I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for anyone who can't get
past their own self and needs and think about the wider community. Those who
can't see that policies affect everyone differently, and that the 'needs of
the many', often outweigh the needs of the entitled few.


My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resources Policy is that I
don't really care what rich entitled nations like Australia need right now.
I care about developing nations where the lives of hundreds of millions will
be affected over the next few years of massive internet growth.


If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG Policy, you better
come with a perspective of what is best for the whole community - just just
your little corner. If you don't, you will experience dozens of nations who
will come back at you with force.


To clarify. I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyone else isn't doing
enough to help the world in any way. Mine is a calling... something that
blends my skills, beliefs and life aims.. It isn't for everyone. What annoys
me is when people only seem to argue for themselves without considering
those who are far far less fortunate.



Skeeve Stevens -eintellego Networks Pty Ltd

skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve


twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net

Image removed by sender.

The Experts Who The Experts Call

Juniper - Cisco- Cloud


On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst
<jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:


I have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my outsourcing
company (astraeanetworks.com), a THIRD world country, how dare you judge me
based on not even knowing me. So I should say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING??
You only have 7 staff.I have 30, pick up your game?

I like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting management and
many many other things that the western wordd has and they they can only
dream of ever learning. I have sent them equipment and also pay DOUBLE the
average wage so that their family can eat and sleep at night. I also provide
a nice office as I am sure you have seen on my facebook, I provide them with
training, trips to Aus and materials that they will NEVER get from anyone in
their country. Is that enough to satisfy you?

India has a truck load of IPs and I know this first hand because I have a
standard business DSL in my apartment there (yes I go there every 3 months
to see them, train them and give them help and assistance) and it came with
a standard allocation of a /28, so again mis-allocation and training is
causing the shortage. They are NOT aware of the shortage and even worse they
were not aware of IPv6 till we got there and provided training and equipment
for v6.. So keep your smart arse comments to yourself, I have said the WHOLE
TIME I am not fighting for me, I can afford space if I need it. I am
fighting for the likes of SMALL business that make up a massive portion of
Australias businesses and ISPs, those are the ones that cannot afford to
just go and pay $10 -$16 / IP and I am saying that it would be good IF they
could get from APNIC.

I am truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way and done it on
a public list, I now know why so many people dont post here, its like being
thrown into a den of tigers. You should be ashamed mate. Next time read my
past emails and get the story right before having a go at someone.

From: ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net
[mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Skeeve Stevens
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM
To: Joshua D'Alton
Cc: AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4

Because, like most people, he is thinking only about himself and how hard
done he is being done by.

I far more care about developing nations... look at India. About 20 million
internet users... and hoping to get to 100 million in the next two years.
Users in China having to 're-connect' to try and get a real IP address. How
the hell are they going to make it happen? But do you know what... they
WILL, and without too much whinging.

This is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat when people
are starving overseas. Really? Get over yourself and suck it up princess.

You have SO much more potential and ability to come up with creative and
innovative solutions to deal with these situations compared to dozens of
other countries who are struggling with sub-standard infrastructure. You can
afford the equipment and expertise they can only dream of.

I have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me. They live, learn and work on
Australia/Western quality networks. I've trained them up to be the best
engineers in the country. Under my direction, they also donate time in
Cambodia helping KHNOG get started, help ISOC-KH happen, involved in
Barcamps, do training for free at schools like Passerelles Numeriques
(http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/) who train orphans and the
poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of them!). I've shipped dozens of
peices of equipment to the country to donate to local Cisco training schools
and other places. I also allocate my staffs time to helping engineers at all
the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what they do - because they very little
options to learn how.

I HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've put my effort
and my money where my mouth is - What the hell do you do Jared? Or for that
matter, you Bevan, whose squillions could make a HUGE difference... or is
there things you've been doing that I don't know? I don't have much, but I
give a lot... how many people here have a lot and don't even give a cent?!



Skeeve Stevens -eintellego Networks Pty Ltd

skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com;www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve


twitter.com/networkceoau; blog:www.network-ceo.net


The Experts Who The Experts Call

Juniper - Cisco- Cloud

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au>

It was depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you deserve space any
more than they do? I'd argue using IPs for cheap VPS etc is almost as bad as
having the IPs routed but not actually past the gateway. In both cases were
the cost $10/IP/mo neither business would be that wasteful, or they'd just
be on v6.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst
<jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:

+1 to this!

As I said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago for IP space and
now I am suffering because others are nesting on it rather than handing it
back, its a shame that so many people have the attitude to just shun people
like me that are young, have a successful business and did not have the
chance to get more space before it was depleted to other larger providers or
other providers that didnt really need space but got it anyway. I was not
trying to rant before and people really took me out of context and smashed
me for no reason, so I am glad someone has put it in a nice long email to be
clear. Thanks Bevan!

From: Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>
Date: Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM
To: Nathan Brookfield <Nathan.Brookfield at simtronic.com.au>
Cc: "ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
Resent-From: Bevan Slattery <bevan.slattery at nextdc.com>

"Basically yes. But get over it." 

Sorry Skeeve, but that's a disgraceful attitude. Many on this list seems to
think "we're so freakin' smart we went ahead and gorged ourselves on IP
addresses to the detriment of the global community and now we are making a
motza from it. Sucks to be you for not seeing this coming".

Well here's the news flash everyone who thinks themselves soooo clever and
smug are frankly obtuse and their level of arrogance disgusts me. You think
everyone without IPv4 space has only themselves to blame remarks that seem
to be coming from middle aged people working for providers greater than 5
years old in a developed economy who have been in the industry for years.

So Skeeve and others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Somalia and
tell them that they have no address space and sucks to be them because they
were too stupid not to see the IPv4 coming. Disregard that it's mainly
because they were too busy fighting a war, trying to find food for their
family or too busy walking kilometres to go to a mud hut with a chalk board
for a "iPad" 5 years ago.

Or how about you go visit people in China and India who have 2,000,000,000
people trying to lift themselves out of some of the lowest wages ever and
despite being so desperate to get connected to the internet to find their
way to "freedom" and information yes freedom and information you know that
thing the internet provides (?) and let them know they've despite having 1/3
of the worlds population you're getting shafted because the Shinhwa news
agency didn't let them know there was an IPv4 crunch coming. Dare you to put
an ad in the paper and invite all those Chinese people to who can't connect
to come down the "the square" to talk to you about why they can't.

While you're at it, go into a tech incubator or anyone who is in their late
teens/early 20's who dare to do what we do and start an ISP and tell them
"sucks to be you I've effectively lied my ass off to APNIC and the other
RIR's to get my hands on a life supply of IPv4 and relied on their pathetic
IPv4 management systems to starve your hard earned start up dollars and your
future while I make huge $$ because I have no conscience! ".

So the plan seems to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and coming
countries and developing countries and sell our IP's to them and IPv6 isn't
going to get traction until they are bleeding out of their noses and they
die on the floor. Sanctioned extortion effectively. We're putting a price on
their future and freedom. How smart are we."

The hubris and arrogance here simply disgusts me and even worse, those that
lied their ass off to steal more addresses than they needed are now playing
mercenary to the future development of our youth or developing countries.
What makes it worse It's coming from people who are involved in the RIR's
and the lack of compassion and disdain being displayed is frankly beneath
what the internet community is all about.

I expected a lot more from a lot of middle aged people who were all young
once and were given a chance. Screw your arrogance and hubris. Get your head
out of your arses and travel the world and see what the power and freedom
the internet and IPv4 provides at least for the next 5 years and remember
that you too were young once and that the only reason your so god-damn smart
is because he you managed to fallout of a womans uterus in a lucky country.

If you can't read between the lines call me and I'll make it very clear how
pathetic your attitude is.


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