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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>+1<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net [mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Van Der Meulen, Mark<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, 4 March 2013 1:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> Jared Hirst; Skeeve Stevens<br><b>Cc:</b> AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>This is not directed to anyone in particular.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Whilst everyone else gets on the “I’m thinking about everyone in the rest of the world where they are so underprivileged, and I’m also helping your grandmother get IPv6 on her iPad, blah blah” in attempts to passive aggressively big note how great they are without sounding self centered, I would like to add my perspective. The perspective of the white male in his mid twenties who grew up in an affluent country and who is for the most part, quite self centered…. (since apparently that matters when discussing IPv4 resource policy now)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I’ll start off by saying that really the whole “ you think you have it bad, you should see everyone else in the third world” argument is simply evasive behavior. Also, whilst you’re pushing how selfless you all are in helping others, think on this: If you want to take credit for being the persons who have been trying to make the internet a better place through your policies regarding IPv4 and IPv6, then you also need to take the credit when flack is handed out about your inability to properly handle IPv4 resource management, and how the bad decisions that you may have been part of are affecting others.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>From this point on in my email, I wish for the “IPv6 is here and IPv4 is long gone” argument to remain irrelevant and for those of you who are defending APNIC to try look at things a little more objectively. There are apparently(according to this rather long email thread) ~16,384 /22’s left, and to some people that’s a lot of IPv4 left – not only that, there is a lot of unused/unjustified/unneeded space out there so let’s talk about that for now.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I work with a number of corporates in banking and finance, and in addition to this a number of small ISP’s and hosting companies trying to get by. Most of the small/medium sized companies I work with are providing IPv6 in a dual stack, and for the most part are limited to their /22 or less, which they have received in the past 1-3 years. On the other hand working with the larger companies, I see absolutely no intention whatsoever of moving to IPv6. They purely run IPv4 environments and show blatant disregard for the amount of IPv4 resources they consume through their various legal entities. Generally, this is because of a number of reasons:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>a)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US>They simply don’t care. They have far more address space than they need, and they have “better things” to do with their time than manage a migration to IPv6.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>b)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US>They don’t understand IPv6, and are concerned about its security implications.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>c)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US>Management would never approve a project to IPv6 as it simply isn’t in their interest commercially.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>d)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US>It is a pain when dealing with compliance.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span lang=EN-US><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>e)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US>Why?? Everything works right now, so why make life harder for ourselves? We are never going to use all of our allocations.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>So on one hand I see, large corporate A with more address space than required, abusing the system because they can’t be bothered(amongst other reasons) and it doesn’t make commercially sense to. Then I see small company B implementing IPv6 but is severely limited ini its growth abilities because of the lack of IPv4 available to it – why is this? Because if they are selling to consumers, the consumer wants a working, no fuss connection that works with everything and with minimal fuss. If they don’t get the minimal fuss, they can and will take their business elsewhere in a twinkling of an eye. If they are selling to businesses, then there is a good chance that the business customers have a very similar attitude to that of company A, in which case they only want IPv4 services. So you get the picture, even though they have IPv6, no one wants it because they don’t care enough about it, and you can’t grow a business off the back of a product that no one wants.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>My point here is that companies who are abusing the system are actually making themselves more commercially viable – they are lowering or maintaining capital and operating expenditure and for the most part making sound commercial decisions. What this means materially for the companies not in the same position(quite likely because of timing) is that they are forced to adopt a strategy which can potentially make them less commercially viable because they are the ones which need to increase CAPEX and OPEX, without any real prospect of those investments returning profit or increased customer retention. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Let me make this very clear, the very same policies that have allowed the company which has obtained excessive address space through a registries mismanagement to be more commercially viable are the very same policies that are limiting the commercial viability of another company. I would say that by definition, this makes the policies of the registrars anti-competitive in nature.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Is it the problem of the small/medium/large business that the address space was previously mismanaged? Is it to something to do with their margins or their own lack of planning? Absolutely not, they are generally making an effort at their own expense to implement other solutions, when often times companies who are abusing the system clearly are not attempting to implement other solutions, and the fact that a company may or may not have the margins to buy more space on the open market is largely irrelevant, they need to be given an equal opportunity to grow - just like a company buying new IPv4 resources or a corporate who already owns lots of IPv4 resources is given or has been given that opportunity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>At the end of the day APNIC and the other registrars were around long before many of these companies started doing business and long before many of these companies even knew what an IP Address was and how it affected their business model. They have been responsible for the allocation of address space for quite some time and hence these registrars must take full responsibility for their lack of judgment and lack of ability to properly administer allocations – they are being paid to have the very foresight that they have proved they never had(and I’m not talking about 20 years ago, I’m talking about in the last 5 years). The new/middle aged companies trying grow are simply casualties of a poorly designed and executed set of policies, IPv6 won’t fix it for them now and they likely won’t be viable long enough for it to fix it for them later. Higher margins/CGNAT/etc are not solutions that will provide long term fixes, and are not solutions commercially competitive enough to find a place in a business plan.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>This is my point, as an outside observer of how the APNIC policy influences the Australian market that I work in, I have good reason to believe that the APNIC policies are cultivating anti-competitive environments. Due to the very nature of the beast in that those who govern it are also those who benefit from it, I don’t believe it will change or can change.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Full Disclosure: I very recently applied for IP space through APNIC for one of the smaller companies I work with who will very likely run out of space within 6 months of having an allocation, so I am biased(quite clearly, given the above email!)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Full Disclosure: I run IPv6 at home and everywhere I can, so please don’t try discredit me because you found someone I work with who doesn’t run IPv6 – it’s poor form and proved you have no interest in correcting bad policies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Full Disclosure: My grammar is pretty average, even for an engineer. Sorry if this hurt your eyes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Lastly, I’m young and feel empowered by voicing my opinion on matters I have only have half the picture on. So ignore me as you wish.</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#595959'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#595959'>Mark</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a> [<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net">mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jared Hirst<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 03, 2013 11:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> Skeeve Stevens<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] IPv4<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I don't outsource, I'm there making a difference by direct employment, creating jobs, giving opportunities and teaching about the networks we run here such as v6 etc, they are not aware if v6 yet and I think that's more important than anything to educate them right? You've been saying all day v4 is dead.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>You did have a go directly at me, you raved on how good you were by employing 7 staff offshore and then asked me what I was doing. I never accused you of not doing anything for a developing world did I??<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Unfortunately I'm not even going to waste my time reply to the rest of your email, clearly you have not read any of mine properly otherwise you would have seen that at no point was I asking or implying that anything was about 'me me me' ill say it again, I can afford the space if I need to buy it, not once have I said I wanted the low rate for me or anything. I merely stated that the low price in AU will be abused. Again get your facts right before commenting.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><br>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Jared Hirst<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Servers Australia Pty Ltd<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Phone: 1300 788 862<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Direct: (02) 4307 4205<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>E-mail: <a href="mailto:jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au">jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US><br>On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens <<a href="mailto:skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>Jared,<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>My point was not what you do or don't do... but your attitude is screaming 'me me me'. Lots of people here use outsourced staff from developing nations (it's not called Third World anymore), so it is nothing amazing. You pay people to do a job. Sure, they might live well, but what are you doing to change India itself? What are you doing to change the future and make things better?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in India... I know quite reasonably what is going on over there... and so do other people who have invested the time, like James Spenceley who has a tonne of dealing with them, especially over the last couple of years in their fight to setup their own IN-NIC.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to affect change overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the developing world, when nothing is further from the truth.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and that the lower APNIC fees will help them... you are only talking about yourself, and how you are affected and that one of the solutions should be that fees are raised.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for anyone who can't get past their own self and needs and think about the wider community. Those who can't see that policies affect everyone differently, and that the 'needs of the many', often outweigh the needs of the entitled few.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resources Policy is that I don't really care what rich entitled nations like Australia need right now. I care about developing nations where the lives of hundreds of millions will be affected over the next few years of massive internet growth.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG Policy, you better come with a perspective of what is best for the whole community - just just your little corner. If you don't, you will experience dozens of nations who will come back at you with force.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>To clarify. I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyone else isn't doing enough to help the world in any way. Mine is a calling... something that blends my skills, beliefs and life aims.. It isn't for everyone. What annoys me is when people only seem to argue for themselves without considering those who are far far less fortunate.<br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><br>...Skeeve<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Skeeve Stevens -</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>eintellego Networks Pty Ltd</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a>;<a href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/" target="_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks" target="_blank">facebook.com/eintellegonetworks</a>;<a href="http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/skeeve</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="http://twitter.com/networkceoau" target="_blank">twitter.com/networkceoau</a>; blog:<a href="http://www.network-ceo.net/" target="_blank">www.network-ceo.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm'><img border=0 width=100 height=100 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CE18EC.07694110" alt="Image removed by sender."></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F007F'>The Experts Who The Experts Call</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>Juniper - Cisco- Cloud</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F007F'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US>On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst <<a href="mailto:jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au" target="_blank">jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Skeeve,</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my outsourcing company (<a href="http://astraeanetworks.com" target="_blank">astraeanetworks.com</a>), a THIRD world country, how dare you judge me based on not even knowing me. So I should say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING?? You only have 7 staff.I have 30, pick up your game?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting management and many many other things that the western wordd has and they they can only dream of ever learning. I have sent them equipment and also pay DOUBLE the average wage so that their family can eat and sleep at night. I also provide a nice office as I am sure you have seen on my facebook, I provide them with training, trips to Aus and materials that they will NEVER get from anyone in their country. Is that enough to satisfy you?</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>India has a truck load of IPs and I know this first hand because I have a standard business DSL in my apartment there (yes I go there every 3 months to see them, train them and give them help and assistance) and it came with a standard allocation of a /28, so again mis-allocation and training is causing the shortage. They are NOT aware of the shortage and even worse they were not aware of IPv6 till we got there and provided training and equipment for v6.. So keep your smart arse comments to yourself, I have said the WHOLE TIME I am not fighting for me, I can afford space if I need it. I am fighting for the likes of SMALL business that make up a massive portion of Australias businesses and ISPs, those are the ones that cannot afford to just go and pay $10 -$16 / IP and I am saying that it would be good IF they could get from APNIC.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way and done it on a public list, I now know why so many people dont post here, its like being thrown into a den of tigers. You should be ashamed mate. Next time read my past emails and get the story right before having a go at someone.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Skeeve Stevens<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM<br><b>To:</b> Joshua D'Alton<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] IPv4</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>Because, like most people, he is thinking only about himself and how hard done he is being done by.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>I far more care about developing nations... look at India. About 20 million internet users... and hoping to get to 100 million in the next two years. Users in China having to 're-connect' to try and get a real IP address. How the hell are they going to make it happen? But do you know what... they WILL, and without too much whinging.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>This is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat when people are starving overseas. Really? Get over yourself and suck it up princess.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>You have SO much more potential and ability to come up with creative and innovative solutions to deal with these situations compared to dozens of other countries who are struggling with sub-standard infrastructure. You can afford the equipment and expertise they can only dream of.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>I have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me. They live, learn and work on Australia/Western quality networks. I've trained them up to be the best engineers in the country. Under my direction, they also donate time in Cambodia helping KHNOG get started, help ISOC-KH happen, involved in Barcamps, do training for free at schools like Passerelles Numeriques (<a href="http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/" target="_blank">http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/</a>) who train orphans and the poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of them!). I've shipped dozens of peices of equipment to the country to donate to local Cisco training schools and other places. I also allocate my staffs time to helping engineers at all the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what they do - because they very little options to learn how.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>I HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've put my effort and my money where my mouth is - What the hell do you do Jared? Or for that matter, you Bevan, whose squillions could make a HUGE difference... or is there things you've been doing that I don't know? I don't have much, but I give a lot... how many people here have a lot and don't even give a cent?!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US><br>SERIOUSLY?!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US><br>...Skeeve<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Skeeve Stevens -</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>eintellego Networks Pty Ltd</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a>;<a href="http://www.eintellegonetworks.com/" target="_blank">www.eintellegonetworks.com</a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Phone: 1300 239 038;Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ;skype://skeeve</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks" target="_blank">facebook.com/eintellegonetworks</a>;<a href="http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/skeeve</a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><a href="http://twitter.com/networkceoau" target="_blank">twitter.com/networkceoau</a>; blog:<a href="http://www.network-ceo.net/" target="_blank">www.network-ceo.net</a></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";border:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm'><~WRD266.jpg></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#7F007F'>The Experts Who The Experts Call</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#002060'>Juniper - Cisco- Cloud</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton <<a href="mailto:joshua@railgun.com.au" target="_blank">joshua@railgun.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US>It was depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you deserve space any more than they do? I'd argue using IPs for cheap VPS etc is almost as bad as having the IPs routed but not actually past the gateway. In both cases were the cost $10/IP/mo neither business would be that wasteful, or they'd just be on v6.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US>On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst <<a href="mailto:jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au" target="_blank">jared.hirst@serversaustralia.com.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>+1 to this!</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As I said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago for IP space and now I am suffering because others are nesting on it rather than handing it back, its a shame that so many people have the attitude to just shun people like me that are young, have a successful business and did not have the chance to get more space before it was depleted to other larger providers or other providers that didnt really need space but got it anyway. I was not trying to rant before and people really took me out of context and smashed me for no reason, so I am glad someone has put it in a nice long email to be clear. Thanks Bevan!</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>From: </span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Skeeve Stevens <<a href="mailto:skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a>><br><b>Date: </b>Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM<br><b>To: </b>Nathan Brookfield <<a href="mailto:Nathan.Brookfield@simtronic.com.au" target="_blank">Nathan.Brookfield@simtronic.com.au</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [AusNOG] IPv4<br><b>Resent-From: </b>Bevan Slattery <<a href="mailto:bevan.slattery@nextdc.com" target="_blank">bevan.slattery@nextdc.com</a>></span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>"Basically yes. But get over it." </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Sorry Skeeve, but that's a disgraceful attitude. Many on this list seems to think "we're so freakin' smart we went ahead and gorged ourselves on IP addresses to the detriment of the global community and now we are making a motza from it. Sucks to be you for not seeing this coming".</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Well here's the news flash everyone who thinks themselves soooo clever and smug are frankly obtuse and their level of arrogance disgusts me. You think everyone without IPv4 space has only themselves to blame remarks that seem to be coming from middle aged people working for providers greater than 5 years old in a developed economy who have been in the industry for years.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>So Skeeve and others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Somalia and tell them that they have no address space and sucks to be them because they were too stupid not to see the IPv4 coming. Disregard that it's mainly because they were too busy fighting a war, trying to find food for their family or too busy walking kilometres to go to a mud hut with a chalk board for a "iPad" 5 years ago.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Or how about you go visit people in China and India who have 2,000,000,000 people trying to lift themselves out of some of the lowest wages ever and despite being so desperate to get connected to the internet to find their way to "freedom" and information yes freedom and information you know that thing the internet provides (?) and let them know they've despite having 1/3 of the worlds population you're getting shafted because the Shinhwa news agency didn't let them know there was an IPv4 crunch coming. Dare you to put an ad in the paper and invite all those Chinese people to who can't connect to come down the "the square" to talk to you about why they can't.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>While you're at it, go into a tech incubator or anyone who is in their late teens/early 20's who dare to do what we do and start an ISP and tell them "sucks to be you I've effectively lied my ass off to APNIC and the other RIR's to get my hands on a life supply of IPv4 and relied on their pathetic IPv4 management systems to starve your hard earned start up dollars and your future while I make huge $$ because I have no conscience! ".</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>So the plan seems to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and coming countries and developing countries and sell our IP's to them and IPv6 isn't going to get traction until they are bleeding out of their noses and they die on the floor. Sanctioned extortion effectively. We're putting a price on their future and freedom. How smart are we."</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The hubris and arrogance here simply disgusts me and even worse, those that lied their ass off to steal more addresses than they needed are now playing mercenary to the future development of our youth or developing countries. What makes it worse It's coming from people who are involved in the RIR's and the lack of compassion and disdain being displayed is frankly beneath what the internet community is all about.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I expected a lot more from a lot of middle aged people who were all young once and were given a chance. Screw your arrogance and hubris. Get your head out of your arses and travel the world and see what the power and freedom the internet and IPv4 provides at least for the next 5 years and remember that you too were young once and that the only reason your so god-damn smart is because he you managed to fallout of a womans uterus in a lucky country.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>If you can't read between the lines call me and I'll make it very clear how pathetic your attitude is.</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>[b]</span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br><br>The information contained in this email and any attachments may be confidential. 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