<div dir="ltr">So.... SSL for phone calls?</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Sep 28, 2022 at 10:32 AM Andrew Oakeley <<a href="mailto:andrew@oakeley.com.au">andrew@oakeley.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg-2555377265526277441">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>> </span><span>Providers also need to keep enough information to verify you are who you say you are when you make contact though and are required to ensure they
don’t disclose information about your account to someone else, which is why many providers keep things like your Date of Birth on file.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>This should also cut both ways. There needs to be some way consumers can easily Identify that the provider calling them is actually who they say they are.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I am sick of my bank and teleco calling me and saying “Before we go any further can you please tell me your date of birth so we can confirm we are talking to the right person”…. Well how about you
confirm who you are before I disclose my DOB to someone who has randomly called me.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Andrew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> AusNOG <<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy Chequer<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 28 September 2022 7:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> James Murphy <<a href="mailto:jamesmurphyau@me.com" target="_blank">jamesmurphyau@me.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> AusNOG Mailing List <<a href="mailto:ausnog@ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@ausnog.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Optus Hack<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hi<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>There are specific rules for prepaid regarding ID validation and documents which must be checked (<a href="https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2017L00399/Html/Text#_Toc478627158" target="_blank">https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2017L00399/Html/Text#_Toc478627158</a>).
As a Credit Provider, they are also required to validate you are who you say you are before providing credit services. Additionally, telcos also have specific provisions for customer protection requiring credit checks to be run before certain services are
provided.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Providers also need to keep enough information to verify you are who you say you are when you make contact though and are required to ensure they don’t disclose information about your account to
someone else, which is why many providers keep things like your Date of Birth on file. The requirement to hold PII is required to a degree and is even outlined in the TCP Code with Clause 3.7 covering the storage and security of said information.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hopefully, this attack will result in some changes not just in our industry but across the board. Maybe something like validating Licences, Medicare, etc against DVS (already commonly done) but then
just keeping the Pass/Fail result and Check ID instead of keeping the full details on file could be a way to minimise the amount of data available in a breach like this, but I’m not sure if that would be enough to comply with some of the obligations.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">- Jeremy <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> AusNOG <<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@ausnog.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>James Murphy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 27 September 2022 11:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Serge Burjak <<a href="mailto:sburjak@systech.com.au" target="_blank">sburjak@systech.com.au</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> AusNOG Mailing List <<a href="mailto:ausnog@ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@ausnog.net</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Optus Hack<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Looking over the Privacy Act and <a href="http://oaic.gov.au" target="_blank">oaic.gov.au</a>, I still can't see any laws about a telco (or any business other than a credit reporting body) storing this level of information
- specifically a drivers license number or date of birth (passport number isn't mentioned)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">"identification information" is the term that includes a drivers license number and date of birth</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">"Credit information" is the term that includes "identification information" about an individual (therefor includes drivers license number and date of birth)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">There are only laws about how long a credit reporting body stores this information. A credit provider (ie Optus) doesn't need to store it, but does need to provide it to
the credit reporting body - so they need to collect it and share it but they don't need to store it.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">For the data a telco does need to store - which looks to be added in the "Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Act 1979", they all talk about "personal information"
(which doesn't specifically include date of birth or drivers license number, so you would be complying with that law if you didn't store those pieces of data - provided you can reasonably identify a person with the data you do store)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">From the Privacy Act:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">personal information</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"> means information or an opinion about an identified individual, or an
individual who is reasonably identifiable:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">(a) whether the information or opinion is true or not; and</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">(b) whether the information or opinion is recorded in a material form or not.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Note: Section 187LA of the Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Act 1979 extends the meaning of personal information to cover information kept under Part 5-1A of
that Act.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">So the argument that they need to store this by law - to me (a software developer/techy who sometimes can spend hours reading shit like this trying to pick holes in it -
so: not a lawyer) - doesn't seem valid.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">If this is required by law, I would love to understand how (ie which laws/acts cover it)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 27 Sep 2022, at 16:46, Serge Burjak <<a href="mailto:sburjak@systech.com.au" target="_blank">sburjak@systech.com.au</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><a href="https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/the-privacy-act" target="_blank">https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/the-privacy-act</a><br>
<br>
Covers it pretty well.<br>
<br>
On Tue, 27 Sept 2022 at 16:36, James Murphy <<a href="mailto:jamesmurphyau@me.com" target="_blank">jamesmurphyau@me.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
Does anyone know which laws cover the data they were keeping?<br>
<br>
Did a search for anything with "telecommunication" in the name (link), found 71 results and downloaded 73 PDF files (C2022C00170 Telecommunications Act 1997 had 3 files, all others had 1 file), and can't find anything that mentions keeping this level of data.<br>
<br>
The closest thing I found was in the following:<br>
<br>
C2022C00151 - Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Act 1979<br>
C2015A00039 - Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Amendment (Data Retention) Act 2015<br>
C2021A00078 - Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (International Production Orders) Act 2021<br>
<br>
which contained the following two sections that seem to cover identification information - there doesn't seem to be anything that says they need to collect or store to the level that Optus seems to have done.. Almost reads like you could store name and address
(without DOB?) and that would be adequate enough (but I'm not a lawyer so who knows).. Am I looking in the wrong place/at the wrong laws?<br>
<br>
13 Identification of a particular person<br>
For the purposes of this Schedule, a particular person may be identified:<br>
(a) by the person’s full name; or<br>
(b) by a name by which the person is commonly known; or<br>
(c) as the person to whom a particular individual transmission service is supplied; or<br>
(d) as the person to whom a particular individual message/call application service is provided; or<br>
(e) as the person who has a particular account with a prescribed communications provider; or<br>
(f) as the person who has a particular telephone number; or<br>
(g) as the person who has a particular email address; or<br>
(h) as the person who has a particular internet protocol address; or<br>
(i) as the person who has a device that has a particular unique identifier (for example, an electronic serial number or a Media Access Control address); or<br>
(j) by any other unique identifying factor that is applicable to the person.<br>
<br>
<br>
and<br>
<br>
187AA Information to be kept<br>
(1) The following table sets out the kinds of information that a service provider must keep, or cause to be kept, under subsection 187A(1):<br>
Item<br>
<br>
1<br>
<br>
Topic<br>
<br>
The subscriber of, and accounts, services, telecommunications devices and other relevant services relating to, the relevant service<br>
<br>
Description of information<br>
<br>
The following:<br>
<br>
(a) any information that is one or both of the following:<br>
<br>
(i) any name or address information;<br>
<br>
(ii) any other information for identification purposes;<br>
<br>
relating to the relevant service, being information used by the service provider for the purposes of identifying the subscriber of the relevant service;<br>
<br>
(b) any information relating to any contract, agreement or arrangement relating to the relevant service, or to any related account, service or device;<br>
<br>
(c) any information that is one or both of the following:<br>
<br>
(i) billing or payment information;<br>
<br>
(ii) contact information;<br>
<br>
relating to the relevant service, being information used by the service provider in relation to the relevant service;<br>
<br>
(d) any identifiers relating to the relevant service or any related account, service or device, being information used by the service provider in relation to the relevant service or any related account, service or device;<br>
<br>
(e) he status of the relevant service, or any related account, service or device.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 27 Sep 2022, at 11:12, Nathan Brookfield <<a href="mailto:Nathan.Brookfield@iperium.com.au" target="_blank">Nathan.Brookfield@iperium.com.au</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
They’re legally obligated to retain it but why it’s on the API and why it’s not encrypted.<br>
<br>
Looking at the data some fields are hashed and then repeated in the bloody clear :(<br>
<br>
On 27 Sep 2022, at 11:02, <a href="mailto:glenn.satchell@uniq.com.au" target="_blank">glenn.satchell@uniq.com.au</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
My understanding was that the data included the 100 points of ID info. Why are they retaining this? Surely after confirming the 100 points there only needs to be a record "100 points provided"=true and not retain the actual details. This goes back to only
keeping the private data you need.<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
Glenn<br>
<br>
On 2022-09-27 10:49, Damien Gardner Jnr wrote:<br>
<br>
Personally, I find putting Authentication on my API endpoints to be a<br>
FANTASTIC first step towards API security. And then not even using<br>
public IP addresses in test environments is a pretty good second<br>
step.. </onlyhalfsarcasticherewhydoesthiskeephappening><br>
On Tue, 27 Sept 2022 at 10:46, Bevan Slattery <<a href="mailto:bevan@slattery.net.au" target="_blank">bevan@slattery.net.au</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi everyone,<br>
Obviously a big week in telco and cybersecurity. As part of my work<br>
I am on the Australian Cyber Security Industry Advisory Committee as<br>
an industry representative.<br>
I am keen to look at opening up a dialogue with more and more telco,<br>
DC and Cloud CISO’s on what they are doing around this issue and<br>
looking to take a proactive step towards best practice on customer<br>
data and system security.<br>
There will be some pretty serious consequences of this hack on the<br>
industry and importantly we need to make sure we are as best placed<br>
to help each other continually increase in security posture through<br>
best practice, but also working with each other as an industry.<br>
Are people keen on having a online/VC session sometime in the next<br>
few weeks where like-minded industry participants get together and<br>
discuss security, retention, encryption, threat detection etc.? If<br>
so, just ping me directly and if there is enough interest I will<br>
send out an invitation to the list for a call.<br>
Cheers<br>
[b]<br>
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<br>
--<br>
Damien Gardner Jnr<br>
VK2TDG. Dip EE. GradIEAust<br>
<a href="mailto:rendrag@rendrag.net" target="_blank">rendrag@rendrag.net</a> - <a href="http://www.rendrag.net/" target="_blank">http://www.rendrag.net/</a><br>
--<br>
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br>
We ran to the sounds of thunder.<br>
We danced among the lightning bolts,<br>
and tore the world asunder<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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