[AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.

Sun Oct 13 17:31:27 EST 2019

Given the OP's attitude towards Telstra, It's a valid thing for them to do.
Mike asked for ACLs, which I don't agree with. Dropping some traffic off in
an inconvenient place? It's a pretty shit thing to do, but it's not
blocking the traffic. Calls will still work, but it might make Telstra
uncomfortable enough that they want to negotiate. They absolutely won't say
"switch to our WiFi network, it's better than OzOnline" because that
wouldn't be true.

I should credit Bill Norton here as what I've suggested is "Tactic 21.
Overseas Power Play" from Chapter 11 of the ISP Peering Playbook. (Sorry no
Sun Tzu quote for this one.) If you haven't read his work, please buy it
here <https://drpeering.net/core/buyTheBook.html>.

For those like Mark who think the network is application agnostic &
transparent... the regulators of world have absolutely not come to
agreement. I change my mind on the topic every time I think about it, and
I've been plumbing bits since the 90s.

-JB

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 13:25, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019, 15:18 Jonathan Brewer, <jon.brewer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> In every market I work in, Internet, fixed line telephony, and mobile
>> telephony are regulated differently. Australia is no different. Peering may
>> not be regulated in Australia, but call termination sure is. And that's
>> what Telstra mobile is doing here - terminating calls on the OzOnline
>> network.
>>
>
> This is really misunderstanding the Internet model. The network is
> application agnostic and transparent.
>
> These calls are not being terminated on the OzOnline network - they're
> terminated at the application end-points - the customers' handsets and the
> Telstra SIP servers (or SBCs).
>
> These are just packets that customer are asking and paying OzOnline to try
> to deliver to somewhere on the Internet. They could just as easily be
> carrying HTTP, game etc. application traffic.
>
>
>
>> Agreeing entirely with Paul, this is a super complex issue.
>>
>> With my grey hat on, I'd suggest OzOnline just drop all voice traffic
>> bound for Telstra off at some European IX & let Telstra haul it back to
>> their network. It's not a lot of bandwidth to ship elsewhere, the traffic
>> will still get to Telstra, and when Telstra wants lower latency, they can
>> negotiate a peering agreement.
>>
>
> If I have a paying customer who says "here's a packet, please try to
> deliver it for me", then that's what I'm going to try to do, because that's
> what they're paying me to do.
>
> You know those annoying suppliers who engage in a contract and then after
> the contract is agreed, start imposing conditions, or manipulating the
> service to make it worse ? A bait-and-switch if you will?
>
> Purposely giving your customers a bad experience is never a good idea.
>
> Telstra won't peer, they'll just say "switch to our Wifi network, it's
> much better the OzOnline's".
>
> Own goal.
>
>
>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 09:55, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It's not truly complex.
>>>
>>> It's as simple as asking what the OP's customers are paying for.
>>>
>>> Are they paying for Internet access, or are they paying for Internet
>>> access excluding the over-the-top services that Telstra are providing?
>>>
>>> If it is the latter, then it needs to be explicitly called out in the
>>> ISP's T&Cs/SFOA. If it is not in the latter, the OP is in trouble with
>>> the ACCC.
>>>
>>> https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 at 11:51, Paul Wilkins <paulwilkins369 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I think this is a truly complex issue, which as it would require the
>>> wisdom of Solomon  to resolve, probably puts it beyond most people's caring
>>> or the actual extent of the problem. Because it's available to the telcos
>>> to argue it's done to improve service quality, you'd really need to prove
>>> that there existed systematic cost shifting.
>>> >
>>> > But it does raise salient questions of monopoly power. For one thing,
>>> it's not the user that opts for these alternate routes, it's the telco, and
>>> their ability to dictate firmware. This is probably not the kind of
>>> behaviour government policy makers and the ACCC envisage in the role of the
>>> national carrier.
>>> >
>>> > Not only do I think policy makers and the ACCC have bigger fish to
>>> fry, but over time the current distinction between voice and internet
>>> traffic may become less distinct. Which turns on questions of net
>>> neutrality, which is still very much an emerging debate, and realistically
>>> will be resolved in the US, and Australia will have little option but to
>>> follow suit. It's the consequence of being a branch economy, that policy
>>> and technical outcomes are put beyond the reach of national sovereignty.
>>> >
>>> > Kind regards
>>> >
>>> > Paul Wilkins
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 16:42, Bradley Amm <brad at bradleyamm.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Well if you have your IPWAN in NZ and the internet endpoint in
>>> Australia you can ;)
>>> >>
>>> >> Get Outlook for iOS
>>> >>
>>> >> ________________________________
>>> >> From: AusNOG <ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net> on behalf of Matthew
>>> Moyle-Croft <mmc at mmc.com.au>
>>> >> Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2019 1:29 pm
>>> >> To: John Edwards; mike at ozonline.com.au
>>> >> Cc: AusNOG
>>> >> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Telstra Wi-Fi calling on our network.
>>> >>
>>> >> FYI:
>>> >>
>>> >> Telstra and Optus do NOT allow WIFI calling while overseas. Which
>>> sucks.  I have US sim that does and it works fine so it’s a business not
>>> technical decision.
>>> >>
>>> >> WIFI calling is such a tiny amount of data compared to almost all
>>> other uses it seems dumb to think about blocking it. Especially when people
>>> rely so much on mobile and a lot of in-building calling can suck pretty
>>> hard. (Heck, my multi-AP, Ubiquiti wifi at home gives me better in-home
>>> coverage than any of the telcos).
>>> >>
>>> >> MMC
>>> >>
>>> >> On 12 Oct 2019, at 1:54 pm, John Edwards <jaedwards at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Every bit of territory that your "sworn competitor" gives up by
>>> putting call data on your network instead of their private mobile network
>>> is territory that it may never get back.
>>> >>
>>> >> Imagine what WiFi calling is doing for International roaming revenue
>>> if every call now looks like a local origination.
>>> >>
>>> >> Rejoice in this scenario and encourage a world where a 20 billion
>>> dollar LTE network or 100 year monopoly are not prerequisites to making
>>> mobile calls - it's one of the few places where you might get a level
>>> playing field for telecommunications services.
>>> >>
>>> >> John
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 09:44, <mike at ozonline.com.au> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hi All,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> So Telstra mobile services increasingly seem to revert to using
>>> >>> Wifi calling even in the presence of decent signal strength.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> If I were a CDN wanting to connect to Telstra IP,
>>> >>> they'd charge me for injecting traffic into their network or for
>>> transit,
>>> >>> and yet Telstra is injecting traffic into our our network to carry
>>> >>> some of their cell traffic, without payment or agreement.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Now you might say, sure, but we're doing that for our customers not
>>> >>> for Telstra. But Telstra themselves will charge CDNs for delivering
>>> >>> content
>>> >>> to Telstra's customers, something Telstra's end customers are
>>> presumably
>>> >>> already paying for. So yeah, we know in this industry what is good
>>> for the
>>> >>> goose is not always good for the gander.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Another point, Telstra, who are our sworn competitors, are using our
>>> >>> network for Wifi calling to supplement their mobile network.
>>> Presumably
>>> >>> this use of their competitor's networks reduces their capital
>>> investment
>>> >>> requirement and supports their revenue stream by raising the
>>> >>> quality of their coverage. Hence Telstra's use of their competitor's
>>> networks
>>> >>> enhances their ability to dominate the industry, again without
>>> >>> any kind of settlement to their competitor ISPs.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thoughts?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Also, anyone have any thoughts about what ACL one might put in place
>>> >>> to block wifi calling if one was of a mind to?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Michael
>>> >>> Australia On Line.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> AusNOG mailing list
>>> >>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>>> >>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>> >>
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>>> >>
>>> >>
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>>> >
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