[AusNOG] Netflix in AU, break up Go4, or TPG peering breakup?

Mon Jul 21 22:09:51 EST 2014

I personally (as the person who brought up government mandates) was 
actually suggesting that ISP's (those that deliver internet access to 
end users, specifically, vs say content hosters like Netflix) be forced 
to join IX's, in an attempt to break up Go4 and make most domestic 
transit affordable for everyone. Being an isolated continent (by sea) 
and sparse population, the benefits we can get from as much traffic as 
possible passing through cheaper peering links is a big plus especially 
for the small/medium guys.

There are more in-depth issues that would need to be considered, but on 
the outset it would feel like a dream come true to some.

On 21/07/14 22:03, Jake Anderson wrote:
> Just a quickie,
> I don't think anybody was suggesting that netflix be given free anything.
> I think people were, if anything suggesting the opposite.
> That if netflix were to come here that the govt somehow forces them to 
> peer at an IX or something rather than netflix going into a telstra 
> colo and forcing everybody else to buy telstra transit for it.
>
> The specific mechanics of how one goes about that without being overly 
> perscriptive and creating a "gang of 5" down the road are interesting 
> and perhaps worthy of discussion.
>
>
> On 21/07/14 21:47, Mark ZZZ Smith wrote:
>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Jacob Gardiner <jacob at jacobgardiner.com>
>>> To: Sam Silvester <sam.silvester at gmail.com>; Mark ZZZ Smith 
>>> <markzzzsmith at yahoo.com.au>; "AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net" 
>>> <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
>>> Sent: Monday, 21 July 2014 3:32 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Netflix in AU, break up Go4, or TPG peering 
>>> breakup?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you use ADSL?
>> Yes, have since 2002. I've also been on call to fix an ADSL network 
>> if it breaks.
>>
>>> Have you ever used a torrent?
>>>
>> Yes, but not to download content for which I don't have the copyright 
>> owner's permission. I hold copyright on work (that I've chosen to 
>> give away for free), if I don't respect others' copyright, how can I 
>> expect them to respect mine?
>>
>>> I’d say most people who are interested in watching their favourite 
>>> shows do so by leaving their torrent client open overnight, on a 
>>> crappy ADSL connection. They’d all be be extremely happy to pay $10 
>>> per month and get something like netflix in their home.
>>>
>>>
>>> So yeah, our market is inhibited and citizens work around it by 
>>> going the slow, illegal route. If you bring netflix to town, i’d 
>>> probably also say that our favourite government would need to 
>>> re-evaluate our broadband network(s) for starters.
>>>
>> These sorts of assertions are typical 'Whirlpool' pejorative 
>> assertions, rather than ones that reflect reality.
>>
>> You assert that ADSL connections are 'crappy'. If that were the case, 
>> then how come it is being used to deliver over 4 Million Internet 
>> services in Australia, more than 5 times the next most popular wired 
>> technology? 
>> (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/8153.0Chapter3December%202013) 
>> (Are you using 'crappy' ADSL? If so, why?)
>>
>> You assert that the only way for people to attain their favourite 
>> shows is via bittorrent, yet I and others have been watching 
>> streaming video over ADSL from the ABC, SBS and Youtube for in the 
>> order of more than 5 years, including over a 3Mbps ADSL link in my 
>> previous residence.
>>
>> You assert that only Netflix is able to provide streaming content 
>> that people want to buy, which is why the government must sponsor its 
>> entry into the Australian market. Yet I've watched a number of movies 
>> recently on Google Play, and my 2.5 year old "Smart TV" has had 
>> Quickflix and Sony's VoD service clients available from day one (as 
>> did the "Smart" blu-ray player I bought at the same time). If 
>> availability of GoT is the measure, then all four seasons of GoT are 
>> available via Google Play, so it can be streamed legally rather than 
>> illegally downloaded. Right now there are a number of VoD services 
>> available to Australians, without Netflix being in the market, so why 
>> should they get a free kick from the government over the existing 
>> *and* smaller players?
>>
>> Many people on this list can't afford to be 'armchair network 
>> engineers' like those who make Whirlpool-type assertions can, because 
>> real money is being spent on real infrastructure and we have or have 
>> had real customers, and have real faults to deal with. What works 
>> well enough and what delivers what the customers want for a price 
>> they will pay is what matters, not religious zealotry about FTTH 
>> being the only God worth worshipping. (And If you look at the above 
>> ABS link, if there is any Internet access technology worshipping 
>> going on, it's the mobile and fixed wireless God being worshipped, 
>> delivering Internet connections in numbers nearly equivalent to all 
>> others combined.)
>>
>>
>>> -- 
>>> Jacob Gardiner
>>> @jacobgardiner
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 21 July 2014 at 2:53:47 pm, Mark ZZZ Smith 
>>> (markzzzsmith at yahoo.com.au) wrote:
>>> By saying we should
>> be 'enabling businesses like Netflix', you're implying
>> they're currently 'disabled'. How?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Jacob
>> Gardiner <jacob at jacobgardiner.com>
>>>> To: Sam Silvester
>> <sam.silvester at gmail.com>; Mark ZZZ Smith
>> <markzzzsmith at yahoo.com.au>; "AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net"
>> <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
>>>> Sent: Monday, 21 July 2014 2:45
>> PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Netflix in
>> AU, break up Go4, or TPG peering breakup?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My point
>> is that we should be enabling businesses like Netflix. I’m not
>> saying anybody should get special treatment. Hypothetically if
>> Netflix were to come on-shore and blow away Quickflix because
>> they’re better then I have no problem with that. In fact they may
>> help influence a change in policy that might make business easier
>> for other VOD suppliers.
>>>>
>>>> We’ve got
>> issues. When a company like Netflix comes to town, these issues are
>> forced and hopefully resolved with benefits to the entire market,
>> not just Netflix.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Jacob Gardiner
>>>> @jacobgardiner
>>>>
>>>> On 21 July 2014 at 2:39:51 pm,
>> Mark ZZZ Smith (markzzzsmith at yahoo.com.au)
>> wrote:
>>>> And why should Netflix get special
>> treatment? Why not Quickflix, Google Play or (shock horror) FoxTel.
>> Why not my about-to-incorporate-if-I-get-free-taxpayer-money VOD
>> company MarkSmithFlix?
>>>>> If you believe in network neutrality, then you shouldn't believe in
>> anybody getting preferential treatment, whether that preferential
>> treatment is in the form of government sponsorship, regulation or
>> even zero metering of some content providers' content but not
>> others by ISPs.
>>>>> Netflix should come to Australia because they want to, and they'd
>> want to if they can make a suitable profit. Any preferential
>> treatment of them penalises every other VoD player.
>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Sam Silvester <sam.silvester at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net"
>> <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 21 July 2014 12:05 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Netflix in AU, break up Go4, or TPG
>> peering breakup?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm curious as to why anybody thinks there needs to be a
>> Government response here - not to mention it's all hypothetical so
>> far anyway.
>>>>>> If/when Netflix come to AU, why would their model be any
>> different to elsewhere? Caches for networks that justify them, and
>> building their CDN out to peering points that make sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's what they have done elsewhere, why would anybody think
>> here would be a special or different case?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Jacob Gardiner
>> <jacob at jacobgardiner.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 21 July 2014 at 11:18:36 am, Mark Newton
>> (newton at atdot.dotat.org) wrote:
>>>>>>> The Government is entirely impotent in this area.
>>   They cannot force an offshore provider to make decisions
>> which are suboptimal to their business.
>>>>>>> This is exactly where the mindset needs to
>> change.
>>>>>>> If the Government wants a business like Netflix and many
>> others to invest into Australia’s market then there should be
>> incentives to do so.
>>>>>>> Or we could just wait until we run out of rocks to dig up
>> WA then freak out.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> AusNOG mailing list
>>>>>>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>>>>>>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> AusNOG mailing list
>>>>>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>>>>>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> AusNOG mailing list
>>>>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>>>>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> AusNOG mailing list
>> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
>> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog
>
> _______________________________________________
> AusNOG mailing list
> AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog