[AusNOG] Work experience in networking/telecoms/DCs? Getting my foot in the door?

[Skeeve Stevens]

Yes, but there will be quite a few years of being in the middle/hybrid of
customers working with both classic and new networking and versions in the
middle.


...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com


The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering

On 24 December 2014 at 03:24, Jarrad Mitchell <ausnog at outlook.com.au> wrote:

> *This is the reason I have every single one of my network engineers
> learning linux administration, a programming language (Python, Ruby, PHP,
> etc), the concepts of virtualisation, an automation tool (puppet, chef,
> etc) and SDN concepts - and openly told the gathering at a recently NOG
> launch in Asia that any senior engineer who hasn't learnt all these things
> to a decent level by the end of 2015 will no longer be working for me.
> Simple as that.*
>
>
>
> What kinds of work do you foresee your engineers doing in a SDN world?
>
>
>
> It seems apparent to me that the ultimate end of SDN Philosophy is to
> reduce Network Hardware to little more than an API for packet forwarding.
> Sure, in 2015 we may have an OpenFlow controller or two, but by 2020 will
> there be any need to have any network controller?
>
>
>
> In a world of Google, Facebook etc, ‘Applications’ are now whole software
> stacks whose needs boil down to little more than APIable Hardware.  The
> Application of the future wants to be able to say ‘give me xyz resources,
> now’.
>
>
>
> Once this vision has been realised, exactly what constitutes a Network
> Engineer?  Because it sure as heck won’t be someone with an Air Console and
> some mad programming skills.  The truth of the matter is that networking
> decisions will have been made by the Application Guys (in software) in
> India or where ever…
>
>
>
> Now, security on the other hand may be an interesting proposition, but for
> instance, if SDN Techniques allow the limiting of security holes to an
> Application (Network User) level, it is quite possible service provides etc
> could simply say ‘hey, you’re application is flawed, deal with it’.
>
>
>
> *My point is as follows.  The end outcome of any API’d Hardware, no matter
> by what fancy name we call it, is that those involved with the hardware
> will have their job functions reduced to moves and changes.  And by that I
> mean plugging boxes & cables in.  *
>
>
>
> Remember, the Free Software Foundation & GNU (the non kernel half of
> linux), came about because Richard Stallman couldn’t just use the
> University he inhabited’ s new printer (due to a proprietary driver).  This
> was what, 1970 something?  Plugging in and using printers no longer gives
> rise to whole industries (or requires writing code)…
>
> ------------------------------
> From: skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com
> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 00:21:45 +1100
> To: ciscoarc7 at gmail.com
> CC: cameron at jferdinands.com; ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Work experience in networking/telecoms/DCs? Getting
> my foot in the door?
>
> Frankly, I care little for CCIE... but they have marketing value... from a
> Cisco partnership perspective, customers like them and employees like you
> paying to get them there.  Also, helping an engineer get through the
> journey is far better than hiring a paper one.
>
> Also, I firmly believe that knowledge of networking is 80% of the effort
> of a CCIE (or similar)... and that most CCIE's should be able to get a
> JNCIE or other similar levels in a short time (in the same vertical such as
> R&S) with focusing on that vendors particular nuances and terminology....
> and I've seen it happen multiple times now.
>
> Cisco has one of the best baseline network training programmes out there.
> Any faults in the education is the people learning it, not the knowledge
> itself.  I recommend most engineers who are even going to specialise in
> non-Cisco, to do the base Cisco CCNA first. Juniper also has one of the
> best education programmes out there, but mostly for beyond the basics.
>
> I also disagree that engineers will always be needed to do the BGP and
> OSPF and many other things that automation and programming won't easily be
> able to do.  The best example is the programming world where most
> programmers use Frameworks to accomplish tasks they previously had to code
> manually.
>
> How hard would (is it?) really be to write a platform where you could:
>
> create bgp AS12345 called UPSTREAM_A;
> link to neighbour AS4567 over path linkgroup LINK_A using auto comms and
> preprend:localpref as needed to keep link at 50% load;
>
> Codification of anything is possible if you have the will.  This is what
> object programming is all about.... and SDN is the future in these kinds of
> networks.
>
> This is the reason I have every single one of my network engineers
> learning linux administration, a programming language (Python, Ruby, PHP,
> etc), the concepts of virtualisation, an automation tool (puppet, chef,
> etc) and SDN concepts - and openly told the gathering at a recently NOG
> launch in Asia that any senior engineer who hasn't learnt all these things
> to a decent level by the end of 2015 will no longer be working for me.
> Simple as that.
>
> Vendors have done a good job of keeping engineers away from the underlying
> operating system for a long time... Cisco IOS now runs on Linux, Junos is
> BSD, Arista EOS is a Linux kernel with Fedora Userland... and most of the
> others are the same.  Cisco Network Engineers (for the most part) have
> avoided learning TCL/EEM scripting and most other vendor specialists have
> done (not) much of the same.
>
> The world is a changing place... and 2015-2016 is going to be a wakeup for
> Carrier, Service Provider engineers, with enterprise following along the
> tail end and into 2017.  This is life people... The Cloud, Fabrics,
> SDN-like networking is going to change everything... wait for Software
> Defined Security... :)
>
> Next year Enterprise networks are going to start adopting Virtual
> Cross-Connect Fabrics and learn the art of on-Demand elastic
> infrastructure.  Any Carriers/ISPs who don't embrace what is coming will
> die in the next 24 months, especially as the tech filters down the
> consumers who will insist on EoD (everything on demand).
>
> Networking has been boring for 10 years... change is now upon us... strap
> yourself in for a couple of fun years.
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>
> On 23 December 2014 at 23:29, Andy S. <ciscoarc7 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Agreed.
>
> I doubt Openflow can troubleshoot or even roll out medium enterprise BGP
> or OSPF automatically without a need of an engineer (who knows these
> routing protocols, defo).
>
> Interestingly, Skeeve, I slightly remember you posted a Network Engineer
> role with a promise to help them get their CCIE. So if your personal view
> is that of even CCIE is not worth not much in the next 5 years, how is
> helping them get their CCIE provide any benefit for your company?
>
> Obviously I am not having a go at you, just out of curiosity.
>
> Regards,
> Andy
>
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Colin Stubbs <
> colin.stubbs at equatetechnologies.com.au> wrote:
>
> Pffft.
>
> Provided they add that knowledge to their pool they'll be fine.
> Understanding Ethernet and STP, along with routing protocols and label
> switching, will still be critical.
>
> What value will an OpenFlow "expert" be if they don't understand what's
> happening on top of the underlay network? Answer: not much.
>
> What good is a network engineer, right now, that doesn't understand HTTP
> and HTTPS? Answer: not much.
>
>
> Sent from a mobile device. Correct spelling and accurate use of grammar is
> unlikely to have occurred.
> On 23/12/2014 10:35 pm, "Skeeve Stevens" <
> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>
> What will a Cisco./Juniper/etc engineer be worth in 5 years with
> technologies like OpenFlow, Cumulus Linux and many others yet to come....
> not much in my opinion.
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>
> On 23 December 2014 at 17:56, Graeme Allen <gallen at mytelecom.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> At one time they used the word "Legacy" as a weapon against Nortel,
> Lucent, et al. The thing about empires is they rarely learn from history.
> What's a Novell certified engineer worth these days?
>
>
>
>
> On 23 December 2014 20:48:42 GMT+11:00, "Andy S." <ciscoarc7 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think they have revamped their CCIE now (version 5) which I am gunning
> (slowly) towards.
>
> One of their bigger change is replacing Frame Relay with DMVPN. Also it is
> now virtualised and I read it somewhere according to Cisco, it enables them
> to do 20-ish routers (always changing) topology and can make it more to
> "real-world".
>
> This hopefully enough to iron out those textbook CCIEs.
>
> I just remember one of my mate told a story about one particular CCIE
> doing "switchport trunk allowed vlan xxx" instead of "switchport trunk
> allowed vlan add xxx" and caused an outage. Companies losing money
> (according to him. It's a stock trading company). Though it's weird they
> needed more time to address where the issue was.
>
> Regards,
> Andy
>
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 6:55 PM, Michael Wheeler <
> michael at michael-wheeler.org> wrote:
>
> Hopefully their exam simulation stuff improves. Twice now I've done an
> exam and you do something slightly unexpected that's not covered by the
> text book (but would satisfy the question requirements) and the simulation
> completely breaks. And not in the since of the network stops working, the
> actual simulation software does things that just repeats the same command
> over and over again without letting you enter in any input. Naturally the
> exam moderator where I do my exams doesn't even know how a router is meant
> to react nor knows how to tell Cisco that their sim is faulty so I get a
> failed exam and down a bunch of my own money. In the end I just rote
> memorized the solution off some website command for command so that the
> friggin sim wouldn't crash. Yes I feel dirty doing it that way which is why
> after that cert I haven't done any exams (even though I covered the
> material).
>
> Interested to see the future of network/communications qualifications...
>
> On 23 December 2014 at 17:12, Beeson, Ayden <ABeeson at csu.edu.au> wrote:
>
> On the topic, Cisco have identified textbook CCIE’s as an issue, they are
> in the process of redoing all their certification tests to better align
> with real world skills, with a lot more simulations and lab tests and a lot
> less multiple choice etc.
>
>
>
> I know the CCNP TSHOOT exam has been redone as all simulation situations
> with real equipment configurations etc, I know CCNP SWITCH and ROUTE were
> pending the changeover when I last did any of them (a year ago roughly)
>
>
>
> I think it’s a very good idea and I’m glad that it is happening,
> certifications are not worth a lot if you can hold one without actually
> understanding what you have learnt….
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ayden Beeson
>
>
>
> *From:* AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *Cameron
> Ferdinands
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 December 2014 6:05 PM
> *To:* Skeeve Stevens
> *Cc:* ausnog at lists.ausnog.net
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] Work experience in networking/telecoms/DCs?
> Getting my foot in the door?
>
>
>
> That's my one of my favourite interview questions.
>
>
>
> "Whats your favourite routing protocol?"
>
>
>
> There only wrong answer is reading a line from a textbook, if you love RIP
> tell me why you love RIP! What's good about it? What's bad about it?
>
>
>
> On 23 December 2014 at 08:58, Skeeve Stevens <
> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>
> Yup.. had about a dozen last year.  And then even if they do have good
> theoretical knowledge, the other thing missing is experience, common sense
> and product knowledge.  Being a CCIE/NP and not being able to recommend a
> switch model is annoying (for me).
>
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
>
>
> * Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>
> Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>
>
>
> On 23 December 2014 at 08:54, Peter Tiggerdine <ptiggerdine at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think we've all being in that interview (or heard second hand ) with a
> textbook CCIE and when pressed can't seem to explain the simple things.
>
>
>
> experience is where it's at.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 7:22 AM, Scott Weeks <surfer at mauigateway.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- Alex.Samad at yieldbroker.com wrote:
> From: Alex Samad - Yieldbroker <Alex.Samad at yieldbroker.com>
>
> Then I would have a look at real work experience,
> not certification boot camps..
> ----------------------------------------------
>
>
> I wish more folks did this instead of starting off
> interviews with cert-style questions, which seem to
> only test rote memorization skills.
>
> scott
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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