[AusNOG] Work experience in networking/telecoms/DCs? Getting my foot in the door?

[Peter Adkins]

If you want to lend credence to your argument, I'd recommend against taring
everyone in a given generation with the same brush.  A sense of entitlement
and opposition to change is not bound to any given generation or group,
you'll find it anywhere you look for it - personal bias notwithstanding.

That said, there is some constructive discussion in this thread regarding
employee health, but it seems at risk of being lost to a generational
argument which is somewhat worrying.

In the realm of long hours, out of hours maintenance, on-call, and lines
between work and personal time being blurred due to the "always on" nature
of the industry, it's far too easy to work yourself into a bad place.
Depression, anxiety, and burnout aren't limited to a given generation or
age group.

It's nice to see a thread that brings these sort of matters to light, and
so much positive feedback on the subject.

- Peter

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 4:46 AM, Skeeve Stevens <
skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:

> This had some good background...
> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/opinion/gen-y-to-get-dose-of-reality-as-pragmatic-kids-make-their-move/story-e6frg9jx-1226879313737?nk=21b65bb1900619784ffc1db406b813e4
>
> I get a lot of your points Mark... but the fact is, we're entering a new
> globalisation age... and if GenY are going to insist on operating in this
> new entitled symmetrical way, then a lot of them are going to find the
> workforce a struggle.
>
> They have been coddled by their baby boomer parents telling them how
> special they were, rewarding every little thing - with trophies.. just for
> participating.  This is the fault of their parents, not them... I get that.
>
> BUT... they are going to have to realise there bosses are not like their
> parents... and real life is going to be a lot harder.  This is why the
> GenYs are the largest segment of unemployed at the moment. Reference
> <http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/gen-y-in-grip-of-unemployment-crisis-as-jobless-rate-soars-centrelink-data-reveals/story-e6frfm9r-1226693093577> So
> unlike their parents, we're not going to constantly give them unjustified
> praise and pats on the head for just turning up... or bonuses for just
> being there.  They don't handle criticism (because of their parents) or
> respond to strong authority and are far more delicate than any previous
> workforce generation.
>
> GenY are having to compete in a globalised market with a lot of immigrants
> who are far far hungrier than then for work.
>
> When I advertise for any IT related job at the moment, 90% of the
> applicants are recent immigrants - some not even here yet... all willing to
> work harder for the same money (I never pay less to a recent arrival).
>
> They are also going to have to compete with the outsourced workforce from
> cultures who do not have the GenY way of thinking.... and with technology,
> many jobs can be done anywhere in the world for a 10th of the price than
> locally.... this is a bigger issue than this discussion, but GenY are being
> hit hard by this.
>
> I'm not advocating any particular way... but if GenY thinks their attitude
> is just going to just be accepted eventually, I think they are living in
> dream land.  GenZ is coming.. a generation of not-entitled people who far
> more clearly understand the realities of the world... and they are coming
> fast.
>
> This is interesting:
> http://www.businessinsider.com.au/study-reveals-expectation-gap-between-managers-and-their-workers-2013-9
>
> Good stats:
> http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/02/indisputable-evidence-that-millennials-have-it-worse-than-any-generation-in-50-years/283752/
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
> linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/theispguy ; blog: www.theispguy.com
>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
> Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering
>
> On 22 December 2014 at 23:01, Mark Newton <newton at atdot.dotat.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 21 Dec 2014, at 2:19 pm, Skeeve Stevens <
>> skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:
>>
>> If you are supported (still live at home etc), I'd recommend offering
>> yourself for free or minimal for a period to give companies the time to get
>> to know you.
>>
>>
>> No, don’t do that.
>>
>> Geez, can you imagine saying that to a developing professional in any
>> other industry? (except maybe journalism, but they have their own problems
>> at the moment…)
>>
>> There’s an argument for unpaid work experience for high school students:
>> they’re green, they’re probably only doing it because they have to, and
>> don’t know what they want to do.
>>
>> But for someone who has drive, and has undertaken training to gain
>> marketable skills, and who has ambition in the industry?  Taking on someone
>> like that without paying them is exploitative.
>>
>> Companies hire contractors sight-unseen all the time, and if they
>> proposed a break-in period for free they’d get laughed out of the
>> industry.  An intern is no different: You don’t know what you’re getting,
>> but you have an easy way of pulling the pin if mutual value is not being
>> demonstrated. If you’re getting enough value to continue the arrangement,
>> you should be paying market rates for it.
>>
>>
>> To be frank... GenY drive me nuts.. they expect everything, money,
>> flexibility, benefits and do bugger all for it and don't deserve it.
>>
>>
>> Because that’s what businesses have demanded of them for their entire
>> lives. What do you expect?
>>
>> Historical context:
>>
>> When my boomer parents entered the workforce, it was normal for an
>> employer to provide a career: Start work, climb a few rungs over the years,
>> retire 40 years later with a gold watch and a hearty handshake from the
>> same employer who cut your first paycheck. The company was your life, all
>> hail the company!
>>
>> (both of my parents worked at O G Roberts, a Holden dealership in Mount
>> Gambier. They had reliable long term employment until my dad decided he
>> wanted to start his own business. If he hadn’t made that decision, they
>> both would have been at O G Roberts until they retired)
>>
>> By the time I entered the workforce after the Recession We Had To Have,
>> that wasn’t practical anymore: Employers demanded “flexible” workers, and
>> workers knew that they couldn’t trust employers to stay in business to
>> provide them with a career; nor would they support their staff through the
>> bad times.  So it became normal for an employer to provide a job, and for
>> the *worker* to provide the end-to-end career path by gaining expertise
>> in their chosen sector. So I’ve never had an expectation of continuity of
>> work, but I’ve known that I can use my portable skillset to switch from one
>> employer to another if the need presents itself, so I can use those skills
>> to synthesise a career.
>>
>> Workplace training schemes like the one built in to NewStart assume the
>> workplace still operates like that, largely because it’s been designed by
>> people in the age range to have experienced those kids of career paths.
>> Those people are wrong, the workplace doesn’t operate like that anymore.
>>
>> By the time Gen-Y entered the workforce, after half a generation of
>> globalization and workplace relations reform, everything had changed.
>> Entire career paths could come and go, and companies and governments
>> consistently told everyone, even senior staff, that nobody could expect
>> permanence. Redundancies were always around the corner, and free global
>> markets meant entire industries would shut up shop and move out of the
>> country at a moment’s notice.
>>
>> Imagine how foolhardy it’d have been for someone entering the workforce
>> two years ago to say, “I’m going to be an automotive designer, and I’m
>> going to bet my whole career on the possibility that Ford, Holden, and
>> Toyota can employ me.” It’d be like someone entering the telco game 10
>> years ago and saying that their ambition was to be the foremost expert on
>> the copper last-mile: Ridiculous, no future.
>>
>> So Gen-Y has reacted rationally: If you can’t reliably predict the
>> future, roll with the present.
>>
>> Unlike my parents, they don’t expect to stay with the same employer for
>> their whole career.  Unlike me, they don’t expect to stay in the same
>> industry sector either. And due to Australia’s unique economic
>> circumstances, they’ve never experienced a recession and never known high
>> unemployment rates. So they’ll think themselves free to chop and change
>> from one industry to the next as fluidly as I’d change jobs. IT this week,
>> boilermaker next year, maybe fund that European trip by doing some sales
>> work along the way.
>>
>> They interact with an employer in precisely the same way that employers
>> interact with them: “You’re temporary. You need to demonstrate value, or
>> I’ll abandon you. We can have an employment relationship, but there has to
>> be something in it for me. If you’re not performing to my standard, there’s
>> no future for us. I don’t owe you anything. What’s in it for me?”
>>
>> Symmetry. Beautiful, isn’t it?
>>
>> As my career has developed, I’ve become “narrow and deep”:  I have
>> significant expertise in relatively specialized fields, and general
>> knowledge about other stuff.  By contrast, Gen-Y will chop-and-change from
>> one industry to the next, dipping their toes in here and there, never
>> staying in one place for long enough to climb the ladder very far, so
>> they’ll end up “broad and shallow.”
>>
>> They are precisely the kind of “flexible workforce” that the last 30
>> years of government policy development inspired by business lobbying has
>> demanded, yet businesses loathe them for it.  I’ve been giggling quietly to
>> myself about that for years. You reap what you sow!
>>
>> But, if you can overcome that by being genuinely willing to work hard and
>> know what you are looking for and don't expect to be on 60k after 6 months
>> - you might just find some opportunities.
>>
>>
>> They’re genuinely willing to work hard.  You just need to work hard for
>> them too.  If there isn’t mutual benefit, one of you is going to feel
>> ripped off, and will be inspired to take action the other one doesn’t like.
>>
>> That’s how the world works.  Employees know employers are going to treat
>> them like that. Employers should understand that employees feel the same
>> way. Flexible workforce, right?
>>
>> Employment is a mutual exchange of value. You pay money. Workers pay with
>> their time, their results, and lost opportunities for more fulfilling life
>> pursuits.
>>
>> Btw.. don't overshare.. no one cares about your illness or personal
>> problems... if you work hard, are a decent, honest person, that is all we
>> really need to know.
>>
>>
>> I read that and I see, “Respect is a one-way street.”
>>
>> *Nothing* works that way anymore. Maybe one day it will, if qualified
>> network staff are a dime a dozen and we don’t have an incipient skills
>> shortage and employers don’t have to give a damn about the people they’re
>> employing.
>>
>> But in the world we’ve been inhabiting for as long as I can remember,
>> employment hours in this industry have been a seller’s market, and if you
>> disrespect your staff they’ll drop you quicker than a ping packet's RTT
>> from LA.
>>
>> *Everyone* who enters the telco industry for the first time from now on
>> is either Gen-Y or a millennial (with even fewer aspirations to
>> permanence).  If you can’t understand their motivations and treat them with
>> respect, you’ll never get quality staff, and you’ll get eaten alive by your
>> competitors who hire them instead.
>>
>>
>>   - mark
>>
>>
>>
>
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