[AusNOG] IPv4

Sun Mar 3 23:25:32 EST 2013

Just to clarify on your comment Skeeve, I own Astraea Networks, I don't
just outsource there. So I do get my hands dirty and support / make a
change to a developing country. Is that enough to satisfy you?

If James is setting up IN-NIC then that would be amazing, as would some
education in ip allocations there etc. as it certainly is needed, as said
before be allocation they give out for a DSL is unbelievable.

Regards,

Jared Hirst
Servers Australia Pty Ltd
Phone: 1300 788 862
Direct: (02) 4307 4205
E-mail: jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au

On 03/03/2013, at 11:03 PM, Skeeve Stevens <
skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:

Jared,

My point was not what you do or don't do... but your attitude is screaming
'me me me'.  Lots of people here use outsourced staff from developing
nations (it's not called Third World anymore), so it is nothing amazing.
 You pay people to do a job.  Sure, they might live well, but what are you
doing to change India itself? What are you doing to change the future and
make things better?

I know a lot of the guys involved in the ISP scene in India... I know quite
reasonably what is going on over there... and so do other people who have
invested the time, like James Spenceley who has a tonne of dealing with
them, especially over the last couple of years in their fight to setup
their own IN-NIC.

I am not someone who normally tells people what I do to affect change
overseas, but I was accused of not caring about the developing world, when
nothing is further from the truth.

 I'm here, arguing for the developing nations... and that the lower APNIC
fees will help them... you are only talking about yourself, and how you are
affected and that one of the solutions should be that fees are raised.

I am not targeting you in my comments here... It is for anyone who can't
get past their own self and needs and think about the wider community.
 Those who can't see that policies affect everyone differently, and that
the 'needs of the many', often outweigh the needs of the entitled few.

My view in relation to Internet Governance and Resources Policy is that I
don't really care what rich entitled nations like Australia need right now.
 I care about developing nations where the lives of hundreds of millions
will be affected over the next few years of massive internet growth.

If you do come to APNIC meetings, or do join APNIC SIG Policy, you better
come with a perspective of what is best for the whole community - just just
your little corner.  If you don't, you will experience dozens of nations
who will come back at you with force.

To clarify.  I am not saying that Jared, Bevan, or anyone else isn't doing
enough to help the world in any way.  Mine is a calling... something that
blends my skills, beliefs and life aims..  It isn't for everyone.  What
annoys me is when people only seem to argue for themselves without
considering those who are far far less fortunate.

...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve

facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ;  <http://twitter.com/networkceoau>
linkedin.com/in/skeeve

twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net

The Experts Who The Experts Call
Juniper - Cisco - Cloud

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 10:17 PM, Jared Hirst <
jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:

> Skeeve,
>
>
>
> I have 30, yes 30 staff in Kochin India down in Kerala with my outsourcing
> company (astraeanetworks.com), a THIRD world country, how dare you judge
> me based on not even knowing me. So I should say WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU
> DOING?? You only have 7 staff….I have 30, pick up your game?
>
>
>
> I like you have trained them in networking, design, hosting management and
> many many other things that the western wordd has and they they can only
> dream of ever learning. I have sent them equipment and also pay DOUBLE the
> average wage so that their family can eat and sleep at night. I also
> provide a nice office as I am sure you have seen on my facebook, I provide
> them with training, trips to Aus and materials that they will NEVER get
> from anyone in their country. Is that enough to satisfy you?
>
>
>
> India has a truck load of IP’s and I know this first hand because I have a
> standard business DSL in my apartment there (yes I go there every 3 months
> to see them, train them and give them help and assistance) and it came with
> a standard allocation of a /28, so again mis-allocation and training is
> causing the shortage. They are NOT aware of the shortage and even worse
> they were not aware of IPv6 till we got there and provided training and
> equipment for v6.. So keep your smart arse comments to yourself, I have
> said the WHOLE TIME I am not fighting for me, I can afford space if I need
> it. I am fighting for the likes of SMALL business that make up a massive
> portion of Australia’s businesses and ISP’s, those are the ones that cannot
> afford to just go and pay $10 -$16 / IP and I am saying that it would be
> good IF they could get from APNIC.
>
>
>
> I am truly surprised that you have totally judged me this way and done it
> on a public list, I now know why so many people don’t post here, it’s like
> being thrown into a den of tigers. You should be ashamed mate. Next time
> read my past emails and get the story right before having a go at someone.
>
>
>
> *From:* ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net [mailto:
> ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] *On Behalf Of *Skeeve Stevens
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:04 PM
> *To:* Joshua D'Alton
> *Cc:* AusNOG at lists.ausnog.net
> *Subject:* Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
>
>
>
> Because, like most people, he is thinking only about himself and how hard
> done he is being done by.
>
>
>
> I far more care about developing nations... look at India.  About 20
> million internet users... and hoping to get to 100 million in the next two
> years.  Users in China having to 're-connect' to try and get a real IP
> address. How the hell are they going to make it happen?  But do you know
> what... they WILL, and without too much whinging.
>
>
>
> This is akin you you complaining you don't have enough to eat when people
> are starving overseas.  Really? Get over yourself and suck it up princess.
>
>
>
> You have SO much more potential and ability to come up with creative and
> innovative solutions to deal with these situations compared to dozens of
> other countries who are struggling with sub-standard infrastructure. You
> can afford the equipment and expertise they can only dream of.
>
>
>
> I have 7 engineers in Cambodia who work for me.  They live, learn and work
> on Australia/Western quality networks. I've trained them up to be the best
> engineers in the country. Under my direction, they also donate time in
> Cambodia helping KHNOG get started, help ISOC-KH happen, involved in
> Barcamps, do training for free at schools like Passerelles Numeriques (
> http://www.passerellesnumeriques.org/cambodge/) who train orphans and the
> poor into becoming engineers (I've hired 4 of them!).  I've shipped dozens
> of peices of equipment to the country to donate to local Cisco training
> schools and other places. I also allocate my staffs time to helping
> engineers at all the ISPs in Cambodia get better at what they do - because
> they very little options to learn how.
>
>
>
> I HELP the developing world better its infrastructure... I've put my
> effort and my money where my mouth is - What the hell do you do Jared? Or
> for that matter, you Bevan, whose squillions could make a HUGE
> difference... or is there things you've been doing that I don't know?  I
> don't have much, but I give a lot... how many people here have a lot and
> don't even give a cent?!
>
>
> SERIOUSLY?!
>
>
>
> ...Skeeve
>
>
>
> *Skeeve Stevens - *eintellego Networks Pty Ltd
>
> skeeve at eintellegonetworks.com ; www.eintellegonetworks.com
>
> Phone: 1300 239 038; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; skype://skeeve
>
> facebook.com/eintellegonetworks ; linkedin.com/in/skeeve
>
> twitter.com/networkceoau ; blog: www.network-ceo.net
>
> <~WRD266.jpg>
>
> The Experts Who The Experts Call
>
> Juniper - Cisco - Cloud
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Joshua D'Alton <joshua at railgun.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> It was depleted over 5 years ago.. Why do you think you deserve space any
> more than they do? I'd argue using IPs for cheap VPS etc is almost as bad
> as having the IPs routed but not actually past the gateway. In both cases
> were the cost $10/IP/mo neither business would be that wasteful, or they'd
> just be on v6.
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 9:40 PM, Jared Hirst <
> jared.hirst at serversaustralia.com.au> wrote:
>
> +1 to this!
>
>
>
> As I said before, I only came into the industry 3 years ago for IP space
> and now I am suffering because others are ‘nesting’ on it rather than
> handing it back, it’s a shame that so many people have the attitude to just
> ‘shun’ people like me that are young, have a successful business and did
> not have the chance to get more space before it was ‘depleted’ to other
> larger providers or other providers that didn’t really need space but got
> it anyway. I was not trying to rant before and people really took me out of
> context and smashed me for no reason, so I am glad someone has put it in a
> nice long email to be clear. Thanks Bevan!
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+ausnog at eintellegonetworks.com>
> *Date: *Sunday, 3 March 2013 8:04 PM
> *To: *Nathan Brookfield <Nathan.Brookfield at simtronic.com.au>
> *Cc: *"ausnog at lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog at lists.ausnog.net>
> *Subject: *Re: [AusNOG] IPv4
> *Resent-From: *Bevan Slattery <bevan.slattery at nextdc.com>
>
>
>
> "Basically yes.  But get over it."
>
>
>
> Sorry Skeeve, but that's a disgraceful attitude.  Many on this list seems
> to think "we're so freakin' smart we went ahead and gorged ourselves on IP
> addresses to the detriment of the global community and now we are making a
> motza from it.  Sucks to be you for not seeing this coming".
>
>
>
> Well here's the news flash – everyone who thinks themselves soooo clever
> and smug are frankly obtuse and their level of arrogance disgusts me.  You
> think everyone without IPv4 space has only themselves to blame – remarks
> that seem to be coming from middle aged people working for providers
> greater than 5 years old in a developed economy who have been in the
> industry for years.
>
>
>
> So Skeeve and others, I'd like to go to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Somalia
> and tell them that they have no address space and sucks to be them because
> they were too stupid not to see the IPv4 coming. Disregard that it's mainly
> because they were too busy fighting a war, trying to find food for their
> family or too busy walking kilometres to go to a mud hut with a chalk board
> for a "iPad" 5 years ago.
>
>
>
> Or how about you go visit people in China and India who have 2,000,000,000
> people trying to lift themselves out of some of the lowest wages ever and
> despite being so desperate to get connected to the internet to find their
> way to "freedom" and information – yes – freedom and information you know
> that thing the internet provides (?) and let them know they've despite
> having 1/3 of the worlds population you're getting shafted because the
> Shinhwa news agency didn't let them know there was an IPv4 crunch coming.
>  Dare you to put an ad in the paper and invite all those Chinese people to
> who can't connect to come down the "the square" to talk to you about why
> they can't.
>
>
>
> While you're at it, go into a tech incubator or anyone who is in their
> late teens/early 20's who dare to do what we do and start an ISP and tell
> them "sucks to be you – I've effectively lied my ass off to APNIC and the
> other RIR's to get my hands on a life supply of IPv4 and relied on their
> pathetic IPv4 management systems to starve your hard earned start up
> dollars and your future while I make huge $$ because I have no conscience!
> ".
>
>
>
> So the plan seems to be "we're going to screw the youth/up and coming
> countries and developing countries and sell our IP's to them and IPv6 isn't
> going to get traction until they are bleeding out of their noses and they
> die on the floor.  Sanctioned extortion effectively.  We're putting a price
> on their future and freedom.  How smart are we."
>
>
>
> The hubris and arrogance here simply disgusts me and even worse, those
> that lied their ass off to steal more addresses than they needed are now
> playing mercenary to the future development of our youth or developing
> countries.  What makes it worse It's coming from people who are involved in
> the RIR's and the lack of compassion and disdain being displayed is frankly
> beneath what the internet community is all about.
>
>
>
> I expected a lot more from a lot of middle aged people who were all young
> once and were given a chance.  Screw your arrogance and hubris.  Get your
> head out of your arses and travel the world and see what the power and
> freedom the internet and IPv4 provides – at least for the next 5 years and
> remember that you too were young once and that the only reason your so
> god-damn smart is because he you managed to fallout of a womans uterus in a
> lucky country.
>
>
>
> If you can't read between the lines call me and I'll make it very clear
> how pathetic your attitude is.
>
>
>
> [b]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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