[AusNOG] Why is peering in Australia so hard?

Bevan Slattery bevan at slattery.net.au
Sun Aug 4 16:36:33 EST 2013 

And to quickly jump in to Megaport/Mega-IX is 10G for $500/month :)

Test Drive in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne provides 6 months free for
anyone signing up until end of August.  This is not just the Mega-IX, but
full Megaport Fabric including Virtual X-Connects (VXC's) to other DC's.

Further info is here:
http://www.megaport.com

Test Drive sign up is here:
http://www.megaport.com/megaporttestdrive.html


Cheers

[b]

From:  "joe at waia.asn.au" <joe at waia.asn.au>
Date:  Sunday, 4 August 2013 4:30 PM
To:  Wolfgang Nagele <wolfgang.nagele at ausregistry.com.au>
Cc:  "ausnog at ausnog.net" <ausnog at ausnog.net>
Subject:  Re: [AusNOG] Why is peering in Australia so hard?

Hi Wolfgang,

Just to quickly jump in here, GigE on VIC-IX is actually $350 per month, we
have moved to the same pricing model across Australia.

Cheers
Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On 4 Aug 2013, at 2:25 pm, Wolfgang Nagele
<wolfgang.nagele at ausregistry.com.au> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I agree with the number of ISPs argument.
> 
> In regards to bandwidth I don't think so. Even if you're just doing a few
> 100Mbits or even less, your case for peering is quickly made. Especially in a
> country where if you are in this position you will probably pay above
> 50AUD/Mbit/month for transit service. VIC-IX for instance will charge you
> 500AUD for a GigE port and at NextDC M1 that cross connect is 75AUD. So if you
> can drop just 11.5Mbits across that fabric you have a break even.
> 
> For that to happen though you will have to have others move that way too and
> this is the part that is hard here at the moment - there is no "critical
> mass".
> 
> Cheers,
> Wolfgang
> 
> On 8/4/13 4:16 PM, "Joshua D'Alton" <joshua at railgun.com.au> wrote:
> 
>> And just adding to that, the scale you have in EU/US is 10-100x what you have
>> here. So we might have... well hundreds of ISPs and a few thousand AS#, but
>> where the 100th largest in Europe will have multiple PoPs with carrier grade
>> equipment and at least 10 network engineers and doing 50Gbit+ traffic, the
>> 100th network here in Australia is 1 PoP, 2 engineers at best and doing a few
>> hundred Mbit at best, so its not really cost effective to consider peering,
>> or even practical. The vast majority of AU networks (ASn or not) are single
>> homed to begin with, let alone thinking about peering.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Wolfgang Nagele
>> <wolfgang.nagele at ausregistry.com.au> wrote:
>>> Hi Mark,
>>> 
>>> The only difference that I can agree to is the distance between major
>>> cities. All the rest is the same in every market around the world. In my
>>> mind the vast distances between major cities should make the case for
>>> peering even stronger. Also as far as distance and availability of IXes goes
>>> Australia is not that much different from the US. Most peering in the US is
>>> carried out at the West and East coast - same as in Australia.
>>> 
>>> I did receive a reply off-list that pointed out what I believe may be the
>>> real reason for the difference in peering culture. In Australia the Internet
>>> did not start with small ISPs all over the place - it started with the
>>> Incumbent. That makes for a very different dynamic around market control.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Wolfgang
>>> 
>>> On 8/4/13 9:40 AM, "Mark ZZZ Smith" <markzzzsmith at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I think it could be a symptom of a few differences between Australia and
>>>> other regions.
>>>> 
>>>> Australia has a small number of large cities, spread apart by 100s of Kms.
>>>> As a consequence, there are only a small number of IXes in each city, and
>>>> the network effect (the more something is used, the more valuable it
>>>> becomes), keeps that number of IXes small. If you're going to connect to an
>>>> interstate IX, you need to be large enough to afford that sort of
>>>> infrastructure (e.g, be able to afford to pay for a reasonable bandwidth
>>>> link that goes 100s of Kms), and you're going to go to the most popular
>>>> IX(es) to gain the best value from peering.
>>>> 
>>>> Once you connect to an IX, multilateral peering with a couple of the IX's
>>>> route servers provides more value than bilaterally peering in most cases,
>>>> because you avoid the administrative overhead of all those bilateral
>>>> peering setups.
>>>> 
>>>> To be worth doing, bilateral peering would need to either provide a peering
>>>> with somebody who won't multilateral peer at an IX, or peering that
>>>> provides more useful value than what the existing multilateral peering
>>>> provides.
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mark.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> From: Shaun McGuane <shaun at rackcentral.com.au>
>>>>> To: Tom Paseka <tom at cloudflare.com>; Wolfgang Nagele
>>>>> <wolfgang.nagele at ausregistry.com.au>
>>>>> Cc: "Ausnog at ausnog.net" <Ausnog at ausnog.net>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2013 3:16 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Why is peering in Australia so hard?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Guys,
>>>>>  
>>>>> I just wanted to chime in here Š We are peering with Wolfgang and set it
>>>>> up last week.
>>>>> We are all for peering .. and if anyone wants to reach out and peer with
>>>>> us we have gear/pop in the following locations.
>>>>>  
>>>>> 530 Collins St (MDF / & MDC Level 15 )
>>>>> 525 Collins St (MDF Rialto Towers)
>>>>> NextDC M1
>>>>> Primus DC Melbourne
>>>>> Vocus Doody St Sydney
>>>>>  
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Shaun McGuane
>>>>>  
>>>>>  
>>>>> From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces at lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of Tom
>>>>> Paseka
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2013 3:01 AM
>>>>> To: Wolfgang Nagele
>>>>> Cc: Ausnog at ausnog.net
>>>>> Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Why is peering in Australia so hard?
>>>>>  
>>>>> Wolfgang,
>>>>>  
>>>>> Australia isn't opposed to peering any more or less so than Europe.
>>>>> Difference is many operators wont set up direct sessions over the fabric,
>>>>> instead relying on peering with the Route Server(s) to exchange routes.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>  
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 3, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Wolfgang Nagele
>>>>> <wolfgang.nagele at ausregistry.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Coming from Europe I have to say that I am still surprised about the
>>>>>> reluctance in Australia to peer with each other. Leaving the large
>>>>>> players and their various (mainly) political motives aside, why the
>>>>>> reluctance among the small providers here?
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> To put it into perspective, we've just recently rolled out a substantial
>>>>>> global Anycast deployment and while we are struggling to get decent
>>>>>> numbers of peers at various IXes here we've established many in both
>>>>>> Europe and the US.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Anybody can shed some light on this issue for me?
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> And for those that actually just would like to peer - our details are
>>>>>> here: http://as58620.peeringdb.com <http://as58620.peeringdb.com/>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Wolfgang Nagele
>>>>>> IT Manager
>>>>>> AusRegistry Pty Ltd
>>>>>> Level 8, 10 Queens Road
>>>>>> Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 3004
>>>>>> Phone +61 3 9866 3710
>>>>>> Email: wolfgang.nagele at ausregistry.com.au
>>>>>> Web: www.ausregistry.com.au <http://www.ausregistry.com.au/>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>  
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>>>>>  
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