<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regarding the disagreement in the original thread about our definition of a "Network Operator", please let me have a go at providing some clarity.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you simply purchase network link(s) from a provider on a retail basis then in the context of AusNOG you are an "end user". Perhaps you are a sophisticated end user or even a reseller, but an end user none the less. I appreciate that some people may purchase multiple retail links to form some connectivity between locations, but that would still be a customer of a network operator.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A network operator is responsible for the actual carriage of data during all or part of it's journey from the source to the destination. Carriage Service Providers (such as VoIP providers and non-carrier ISPs) are viewed as Network Operators in our context as they are responsible for traffic as it passes through their infrastructure from the source and / or destination carrier networks.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That said, we do have many, many "end users" on the list who see great value in the content and the visibility into the operation and availability of our nation's networks. They are most welcome on the list but clearly questions about individual retail services would be better asked of the provider selling the service.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And if you wish to debate this then please do so off-list. Hopefully that won't be necessary, but it certainly wouldn't add value for the thousands of people on the list.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class="">
<div>Regards,<br class=""><br class="">David<br class="">...</div>
</div>
<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 17 Jan 2022, at 11:27 pm, Noel Butler <<a href="mailto:noel.butler@ausics.net" class="">noel.butler@ausics.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><p style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">Your post comes as an end user, very simple.</p><p id="reply-intro" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">On 17/01/2022 23:02, Christopher Hawker wrote:</p><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 0.4em; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=""><div id="replybody1" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">I don't think you understood the context of the post Noel. Definitely not looking for Whingepool. You're right, these groups have gone to shit due to people replying with useless garbage that has no relevance to the question being asked (refer to your last e-mail).</div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div></div></div></blockquote><div id="replybody1" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">when your OT expect to be called out</div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div></div></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 0.4em; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=""><div id="replybody1" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">For the record, I do operate a network. Whether you own the infrastructure the network operates over, the type of network, the end user, all of that is irrelevant. I operate networks on behalf of my clients. As you may or may not know, AusNOG is here for</div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">network operators to assist one another, not strictly "I am sending routes to Peer B however they are not sending back" type questions which may be news to you.</div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div></div></div></blockquote><div id="replybody1" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">Actually sonny, yes, as I've been on this list since day dot, having, like a few long time regulars here, come over from the 'ol aussie list run by Andy at the time, and that's exactly what it is supposed to be</div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">and I don't recall the board ever changing that, of course if they did and I missed it, no doubt Dave will let me know</div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div></div></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 0.4em; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=""><div id="replybody1" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">One final question - if the group has gone to shit, why are you still here?</div></div></div></blockquote><div id="replybody1" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">I have asked myself that question a few times when I read whingepool like posts</div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div></div></div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; padding: 0px 0.4em; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=""><div id="replybody1" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">CH.</div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class="">PS: Thanks for the laugh, I needed it<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span id="v1😄" class="">😄</span><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div id="v1appendonsend" class=""> </div><div style="font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </div><hr style="display: inline-block; width: 997.84375px;" class=""><div id="v1divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""><div class=""> </div></div><div style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif;" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class="">the problem is you posted this to a network operators list, however that seems to have gone to shit in recent years, I think the list you're looking for is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:user@whingepool.dev.null" rel="noreferrer" class="">user@whingepool.dev.null</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div><p id="v1x_reply-intro" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""> </p><blockquote style="padding: 0px 0.4em; border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); margin: 0px;" class=""><div id="v1x_replybody1" class=""> </div></blockquote><div id="v1x_signature" class=""><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><p style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=""><br class=""></p><div id="signature" style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class="">--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><p class="">Regards,<br class="">Noel Butler</p><table border="1" width="748" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" class=""><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="text-align: left;" class=""><p class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;" class=""><span style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif;" class="">This Email, including attachments, may contain legally privileged information, therefore at all times remains confidential and subject to copyright protected under international law. 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