<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>317V, substitute:<br>unless:<br><div style="margin-left:40px">(a) the Attorney-General is satisfied that:<br></div><div style="margin-left:80px">(i) the requirements imposed by the notice are reasonable and proportionate; and<br>(ii) compliance with the notice is practicable and technically feasible; and<br></div><div style="margin-left:40px"><b>(b) an eligible Judge has approved the giving of the notice.</b><br></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at 12:39, Paul Wilkins <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><a href="https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/amend/r6195_amend_96ffec08-558c-4ff9-9448-0a18c21cf1c7/upload_pdf/8627%20CW%20Telecommunications%20and%20Other%20Legislation%20Amendment%20(Assistance%20and%20Access)%20Bill%202018%20Wong.pdf;fileType=application/pdf" target="_blank">https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/amend/r6195_amend_96ffec08-558c-4ff9-9448-0a18c21cf1c7/upload_pdf/8627%20CW%20Telecommunications%20and%20Other%20Legislation%20Amendment%20(Assistance%20and%20Access)%20Bill%202018%20Wong.pdf;fileType=application/pdf</a><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at 12:25, Paul Brooks <<a href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au" target="_blank">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
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    <div class="gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix">@Matt - 'a screen capture and remote
      access ability', if installed on all phones would surely be a
      'systemic vulnerability' in anybody's view, and would be a global
      disaster if the method of triggering this ability escaped to the
      wider world. This would be an example of precisely the dangerous
      and ill-advised exploit that we are all concerned the agencies
      might ask for in ignorance.   Heck, this is exactly the sort of
      malware exploit that after-market malware scanners and virus
      checkers for phones should be looking for to to detect and warn
      the user if an app or the OS had been compromised and was
      attempting to do these things. I can see a rapidly growing market
      for malware checkers!</div>
    <div class="gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix">@Paul - where is the requirement for
      'judicial approval'? - it doesn't go anywhere near a court.   The
      TCN can be issued by the Attorney General. If (and only if) the
      recipient thinks it might be able to be pushed back on, they can
      ask for a review by a *retired* judge and a tech expert with a
      high security clearance.  A *retired* judge is not a 'judicial
      approval', and the easiest place to source the other expert from
      is from within ASIO - hardly independent.  The AGD chooses the two
      reviewers, not the recipient. The legislation as passed also
      doesn't deal with the situation if the two experts disagree on
      whether it is allowable or not.   And there is no requirement for
      a warrant to have been issued - the whole point of a TCN is to
      preemptively create a capability that can be exploited later, on
      the off chance there will be a future warrant that requires the
      exploit to be triggered.<br>
    </div>
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    <div class="gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix">Paul.<br>
    </div>
    <div class="gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix">On 12/12/2018 12:02 pm, Paul Wilkins
      wrote:<br>
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                                                  <div>Matt, (IINAL)</div>
                                                  <div>But it appears on
                                                    my reading that both
                                                    317ZG and more
                                                    specifically the new
                                                    317ZGA would
                                                    arguably prohibit
                                                    this.</div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>The (pending?)
                                                    amendments are worth
                                                    a read. Stronger
                                                    terms on 317ZG and
                                                    importantly - <b>requirement
                                                      for judicial
                                                      approval of TCNs</b>.<br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div><br>
                                                  </div>
                                                  <div>
                                                    <div style="margin-left:40px">317P
                                                      (5)(2)(d) the
                                                      designated
                                                      communications
                                                      provider has, if
                                                      reasonably
                                                      practicable, been
                                                      consulted and
                                                      given a reasonable
                                                      opportunity to
                                                      make submissions
                                                      on whether the
                                                      requirements to be
                                                      imposed by the
                                                      notice are
                                                      reasonable and
                                                      proportionate and
                                                      whether compliance
                                                      with the notice is
                                                      practicable and
                                                      technically
                                                      feasible.<br>
                                                    </div>
                                                    <br>
                                                  </div>
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      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr">On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at 11:30, Matt Perkins <<a href="mailto:matt@spectrum.com.au" target="_blank">matt@spectrum.com.au</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">It
          strikes me that all that will be needed is the phone
          manufacturers to put a screen capture and remote access
          ability on the phones. Then Law enforcement need to do is read
          the screens no need to involve the individual app makers at
          all.  They are after a wide and non savvy audience here.
          Looking over the shoulder of phone users is what we are
          talking about. I would say expect to see a boost in
          convictions of medium size drug distributors  and  small
          amateur terror type people. <br>
          <br>
          These are the same people that used sms before they just want
          that capability back. <br>
          <br>
          Matt<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          -- <br>
          /* Matt Perkins<br>
                 Direct 1300 137 379     Spectrum Networks Ptd. Ltd.<br>
                 Office 1300 133 299     <a href="mailto:matt@spectrum.com.au" target="_blank">matt@spectrum.com.au</a><br>
                 Fax    1300 133 255     Level 6, 350 George Street
          Sydney 2000<br>
                SIP <a href="mailto:1300137379@sip.spectrum.com.au" target="_blank">1300137379@sip.spectrum.com.au</a><br>
                 Google Talk <a href="mailto:MattAPerkins@gmail.com" target="_blank">MattAPerkins@gmail.com</a><br>
                 PGP/GNUPG Public Key can be found at  <a href="http://pgp.mit.edu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://pgp.mit.edu</a><br>
          */<br>
          <br>
          > On 12 Dec 2018, at 8:27 am, Paul Brooks <<a href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au" target="_blank">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>>
          wrote:<br>
          > <br>
          >> On 12/12/2018 3:54 am, Scott Weeks wrote:<br>
          >> <br>
          >> -----------------<br>
          >> The Bill was passed on Thursday<br>
          >> -----------------<br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> Damn, I'm gonna need a bigger bag of popcorn!<br>
          >> Waaaay bigger.  I can't wait to see how this <br>
          >> plays out.<br>
          > <br>
          > We'll probably never know how this plays out, unless one
          of the major global brands<br>
          > pulls out of the Australian market.<br>
          > <br>
          > Tech companies doing development in Aust will put in
          independent code reviews by an<br>
          > offshore team to protect against onshore employees, or
          will quietly close Australian<br>
          > development shops over years.  Some tech companies will
          move overseas - gradually,<br>
          > over months and years.    Net result - lower demand for
          Australian IT staff, lower<br>
          > export figures in the DFAT stats over years.<br>
          > <br>
          > Many 'component manufacturers or suppliers' will blithely
          carry on, unaware this might<br>
          > apply to them at all until they receive a notice<br>
          > <br>
          > A massive data breach in 3 years time may not be traced
          back to a system change caused<br>
          > as a result of a notice, or if an investigation does
          uncover the root cause, is likely<br>
          > to be quietly hushed up.<br>
          > <br>
          > It'll take a massive ASIC-website-blocking-like event
          own-goal to generate demand for<br>
          > popcorn. That or a majority of politicians starting to
          listen to experts rather than<br>
          > agencies and repealing it, and there's precious few
          Andrew Wilkies around at the<br>
          > moment so that's even less likely.<br>
          > <br>
          > P.<br>
          > <br>
          > <br>
          > <br>
          > <br>
          > <br>
          >> <br>
          >> scott<br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >>>  <br>
          >>> <br>
          >>> <br>
          >>> _______________________________________________<br>
          >>> AusNOG mailing list<br>
          >>> <a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
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          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> _______________________________________________<br>
          >> AusNOG mailing list<br>
          >> <a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
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          >> <br>
          >> <br>
          >> _______________________________________________<br>
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          >> <a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
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          > <br>
          > <br>
          > _______________________________________________<br>
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