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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">An example might be, Law enforcement
      use a lawful instrument to tell say Apple. Push firmware to a
      users phone (say based on apple id) that takes a screen shot every
      time any instant messaging app updates the screen. Pack up all
      those images and send them through to government-zyx  every 5
      minutes.  You can hardly call there firmware update system a
      systemic weakness.  But then some changes might need to be made 
      to allow push to a specific device/user and without the user
      seeing the process. Is that a weakness who knows someone more
      knowledgeable of the law then me. <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Remember these are the same people that
      say the law's of math will bow to the laws of Australia. They
      really dont care how it work's that's someone ease's problem time
      to head to the parliament cafe for a sandwich and check latest
      tweets from Paul Murry.  <br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Matt.</div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
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    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
    </div>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/12/18 2:41 pm, Paul Wilkins
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMmROT+=sraASn7YkzVNC5_tS4nVNjtLMj=hWKV5206YHTdy5w@mail.gmail.com">
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        <div>Neither the law nor technology has a great record for
          interest in epistemological questions, but Matt's question
          raises interesting epistemological questions around the
          application of 317ZG and the meaning of "systemic weakness".</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>The whole point of the Assistance and Access Act is to
          target end point computing devices. So at some point, law
          enforcement has to exercise a control plane function to
          extract data from that device. The existence of this control
          plane function is additional to the device's functionality,
          and so expands the attack surface of the device. So it can be
          argued, that any attempt by law enforcement to access end
          point devices via additional mechanisms introduced via TCN/TAN
          notices, constitutes a systemic weakness, and gives rise to
          the protections of 317ZG that forbid the introduction of
          systemic weaknesses. Consequently, no TCN or TAN is
          enforceable in an epistemological sense. (They may be
          enforceable at law, but I don't pretend to be a legal expert).<br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Kind regards</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Paul Wilkins<br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr">On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at 13:21, Paul Wilkins <<a
            href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div dir="ltr">The inclusion of judicial authorisation of
              notices is an important safeguard, for no less reason than
              that it would provide the necessary safeguard against a
              TCN or TAN being used as constituting authorisation under
              section 313C(3) and s280(1)(b) of the Telecommunications
              Act for the bulk disclosure of carrier metadata.<br>
              <br>
              Kind regards<br>
              <br>
              Paul Wilkins<br>
              <br>
            </div>
          </div>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div dir="ltr">On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at 13:14, Paul Brooks
              <<a href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
              0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
              rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix">Paul
                  - those are the additional Opposition amendments, to
                  have been moved by Penny Wong, that were not
                  introduced and are not part of the current
                  legislation. If the opposition crosses its fingers,
                  they might be allowed to try them in February.</div>
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                </div>
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix">Right
                  now, the relevant part is 317WA  Assessment and report
                  (regarding a TCN):</div>
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix">
                  <blockquote type="cite"><br>
                    (1) If a consultation notice is given to a
                    designated communications provider under subsection
                    317W(1) in relation to a proposed technical
                    capability notice, the provider may, within the time
                    limit specified in the consultation notice, give the
                    Attorney-General a written notice requesting the
                    carrying out of an assessment of whether the
                    proposed technical capability notice should be
                    given.<br>
                    (2) If a designated communications provider gives
                    the Attorney-General a notice under subsection (1)
                    in relation to a proposed technical capability
                    notice, the Attorney-General must appoint 2 persons
                    to carry out an assessment of whether the proposed
                    technical capability notice should be given.<br>
                    (3) For the purposes of this section, the persons
                    appointed under subsection (2) are to be known as
                    the <i>assessors.</i><br>
                    (4) One of the assessors must be a person who: <br>
                                (a) has knowledge that would enable the
                    person to assess whether proposed technical
                    capability notices would contravene section 317ZG;
                    and<br>
                                (b) is cleared for security purposes to:<br>
                                                (i) the highest level
                    required by staff members of ASIO; or<br>
                                                (ii) such lower level as
                    the Attorney-General approves.<br>
                    (5) One of the assessors must be a person who:<br>
                                   (a) has served as a judge in one or
                    more prescribed courts for a period of 5 years; and<br>
                                   (b) no longer holds a commission as a
                    judge of a prescribed court.</blockquote>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix">etc.</div>
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                </div>
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                </div>
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                </div>
                <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072moz-cite-prefix">On
                  12/12/2018 12:45 pm, Paul Wilkins wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote type="cite">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>317V, substitute:<br>
                        unless:<br>
                        <div style="margin-left:40px">(a) the
                          Attorney-General is satisfied that:<br>
                        </div>
                        <div style="margin-left:80px">(i) the
                          requirements imposed by the notice are
                          reasonable and proportionate; and<br>
                          (ii) compliance with the notice is practicable
                          and technically feasible; and<br>
                        </div>
                        <div style="margin-left:40px"><b>(b) an eligible
                            Judge has approved the giving of the notice.</b><br>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <div dir="ltr">On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at 12:39, Paul
                      Wilkins <<a
                        href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
                      0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                      rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                      <div dir="ltr"><a
href="https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/amend/r6195_amend_96ffec08-558c-4ff9-9448-0a18c21cf1c7/upload_pdf/8627%20CW%20Telecommunications%20and%20Other%20Legislation%20Amendment%20(Assistance%20and%20Access)%20Bill%202018%20Wong.pdf;fileType=application/pdf"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/legislation/amend/r6195_amend_96ffec08-558c-4ff9-9448-0a18c21cf1c7/upload_pdf/8627%20CW%20Telecommunications%20and%20Other%20Legislation%20Amendment%20(Assistance%20and%20Access)%20Bill%202018%20Wong.pdf;fileType=application/pdf</a><br>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      <div class="gmail_quote">
                        <div dir="ltr">On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at 12:25,
                          Paul Brooks <<a
                            href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au"
                            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>>
                          wrote:<br>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                          style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                          0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                          rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                          <div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
                            <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix">@Matt
                              - 'a screen capture and remote access
                              ability', if installed on all phones would
                              surely be a 'systemic vulnerability' in
                              anybody's view, and would be a global
                              disaster if the method of triggering this
                              ability escaped to the wider world. This
                              would be an example of precisely the
                              dangerous and ill-advised exploit that we
                              are all concerned the agencies might ask
                              for in ignorance.   Heck, this is exactly
                              the sort of malware exploit that
                              after-market malware scanners and virus
                              checkers for phones should be looking for
                              to to detect and warn the user if an app
                              or the OS had been compromised and was
                              attempting to do these things. I can see a
                              rapidly growing market for malware
                              checkers!</div>
                            <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix">@Paul
                              - where is the requirement for 'judicial
                              approval'? - it doesn't go anywhere near a
                              court.   The TCN can be issued by the
                              Attorney General. If (and only if) the
                              recipient thinks it might be able to be
                              pushed back on, they can ask for a review
                              by a *retired* judge and a tech expert
                              with a high security clearance.  A
                              *retired* judge is not a 'judicial
                              approval', and the easiest place to source
                              the other expert from is from within ASIO
                              - hardly independent.  The AGD chooses the
                              two reviewers, not the recipient. The
                              legislation as passed also doesn't deal
                              with the situation if the two experts
                              disagree on whether it is allowable or
                              not.   And there is no requirement for a
                              warrant to have been issued - the whole
                              point of a TCN is to preemptively create a
                              capability that can be exploited later, on
                              the off chance there will be a future
                              warrant that requires the exploit to be
                              triggered.<br>
                            </div>
                            <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix">Paul.<br>
                            </div>
                            <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div
class="gmail-m_1481898916327875589gmail-m_6924476029596879072gmail-m_520188063830096251gmail-m_5788927746176696892moz-cite-prefix">On
                              12/12/2018 12:02 pm, Paul Wilkins wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div dir="ltr">
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                                                          <div>Matt,
                                                          (IINAL)</div>
                                                          <div>But it
                                                          appears on my
                                                          reading that
                                                          both 317ZG and
                                                          more
                                                          specifically
                                                          the new 317ZGA
                                                          would arguably
                                                          prohibit this.</div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>The
                                                          (pending?)
                                                          amendments are
                                                          worth a read.
                                                          Stronger terms
                                                          on 317ZG and
                                                          importantly -
                                                          <b>requirement
                                                          for judicial
                                                          approval of
                                                          TCNs</b>.<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div><br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <div>
                                                          <div
                                                          style="margin-left:40px">317P
                                                          (5)(2)(d) the
                                                          designated
                                                          communications
                                                          provider has,
                                                          if reasonably
                                                          practicable,
                                                          been consulted
                                                          and given a
                                                          reasonable
                                                          opportunity to
                                                          make
                                                          submissions on
                                                          whether the
                                                          requirements
                                                          to be imposed
                                                          by the notice
                                                          are reasonable
                                                          and
                                                          proportionate
                                                          and whether
                                                          compliance
                                                          with the
                                                          notice is
                                                          practicable
                                                          and
                                                          technically
                                                          feasible.<br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          <br>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                          </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                      </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                  </div>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                          </div>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <br>
                              <div class="gmail_quote">
                                <div dir="ltr">On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 at
                                  11:30, Matt Perkins <<a
                                    href="mailto:matt@spectrum.com.au"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">matt@spectrum.com.au</a>>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
                                  style="margin:0px 0px 0px
                                  0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                                  rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">It
                                  strikes me that all that will be
                                  needed is the phone manufacturers to
                                  put a screen capture and remote access
                                  ability on the phones. Then Law
                                  enforcement need to do is read the
                                  screens no need to involve the
                                  individual app makers at all.  They
                                  are after a wide and non savvy
                                  audience here. Looking over the
                                  shoulder of phone users is what we are
                                  talking about. I would say expect to
                                  see a boost in convictions of medium
                                  size drug distributors  and  small
                                  amateur terror type people. <br>
                                  <br>
                                  These are the same people that used
                                  sms before they just want that
                                  capability back. <br>
                                  <br>
                                  Matt<br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  <br>
                                  -- <br>
                                  /* Matt Perkins<br>
                                         Direct 1300 137 379   
                                   Spectrum Networks Ptd. Ltd.<br>
                                         Office 1300 133 299     <a
                                    href="mailto:matt@spectrum.com.au"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">matt@spectrum.com.au</a><br>
                                         Fax    1300 133 255     Level
                                  6, 350 George Street Sydney 2000<br>
                                        SIP <a
                                    href="mailto:1300137379@sip.spectrum.com.au"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">1300137379@sip.spectrum.com.au</a><br>
                                         Google Talk <a
                                    href="mailto:MattAPerkins@gmail.com"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">MattAPerkins@gmail.com</a><br>
                                         PGP/GNUPG Public Key can be
                                  found at  <a
                                    href="http://pgp.mit.edu"
                                    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">http://pgp.mit.edu</a><br>
                                  */<br>
                                  <br>
                                  > On 12 Dec 2018, at 8:27 am, Paul
                                  Brooks <<a
                                    href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                  > <br>
                                  >> On 12/12/2018 3:54 am, Scott
                                  Weeks wrote:<br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> -----------------<br>
                                  >> The Bill was passed on
                                  Thursday<br>
                                  >> -----------------<br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> Damn, I'm gonna need a bigger
                                  bag of popcorn!<br>
                                  >> Waaaay bigger.  I can't wait
                                  to see how this <br>
                                  >> plays out.<br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > We'll probably never know how
                                  this plays out, unless one of the
                                  major global brands<br>
                                  > pulls out of the Australian
                                  market.<br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > Tech companies doing development
                                  in Aust will put in independent code
                                  reviews by an<br>
                                  > offshore team to protect against
                                  onshore employees, or will quietly
                                  close Australian<br>
                                  > development shops over years. 
                                  Some tech companies will move overseas
                                  - gradually,<br>
                                  > over months and years.    Net
                                  result - lower demand for Australian
                                  IT staff, lower<br>
                                  > export figures in the DFAT stats
                                  over years.<br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > Many 'component manufacturers or
                                  suppliers' will blithely carry on,
                                  unaware this might<br>
                                  > apply to them at all until they
                                  receive a notice<br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > A massive data breach in 3 years
                                  time may not be traced back to a
                                  system change caused<br>
                                  > as a result of a notice, or if an
                                  investigation does uncover the root
                                  cause, is likely<br>
                                  > to be quietly hushed up.<br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > It'll take a massive
                                  ASIC-website-blocking-like event
                                  own-goal to generate demand for<br>
                                  > popcorn. That or a majority of
                                  politicians starting to listen to
                                  experts rather than<br>
                                  > agencies and repealing it, and
                                  there's precious few Andrew Wilkies
                                  around at the<br>
                                  > moment so that's even less
                                  likely.<br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > P.<br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> scott<br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >>>  <br>
                                  >>> <br>
                                  >>> <br>
                                  >>>
                                  _______________________________________________<br>
                                  >>> AusNOG mailing list<br>
                                  >>> <a
                                    href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
                                  >>> <a
                                    href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog"
                                    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >>
                                  _______________________________________________<br>
                                  >> AusNOG mailing list<br>
                                  >> <a
                                    href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
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                                    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >> <br>
                                  >>
                                  _______________________________________________<br>
                                  >> AusNOG mailing list<br>
                                  >> <a
                                    href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
                                  >> <a
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                                    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
                                  > <br>
                                  > <br>
                                  >
                                  _______________________________________________<br>
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
/* Matt Perkins 
        Direct 1300 137 379        Spectrum Networks Ptd. Ltd. 
        Office 1300 133 299        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:matt@spectrum.com.au">matt@spectrum.com.au</a> 
                                   Level 6, 350 George Street Sydney 2000
        Spectrum Networks is a member of the Communications Alliance & TIO  
*/
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