<div dir="ltr"><div>There's a lot of different sections and different Acts that interact, in complex ways with multiple double negations making it a bit of a head twist, and I don't believe anyone can say with certainty how the courts would rule on an attempt by the AG to use TCN/TANs to access metadata datastreams. I believe it's both possible, and that the Bill should have stronger protections to discourage law enforcement going down this path at some point.<br></div><div><br></div><div>TCNs can't compel data retention (we've already been there). However, they certainly can, (IMHO) compel implementation of providing access to metadata datastreams as a service.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Once you have the capability to transfer datastreams, then you only need to turn them on. That can happen either under a TAN/TAR direction from a law enforcement agency, where the agency decides it's necessary. There's also no reason a carrier cannot voluntarily provide the datastream. There is no protection under the law that requires law enforcement to have a warrant to access metadata. Where law enforcement can compel the provision of metadata as a service, a request to provide it voluntary comes with the implication that if it's not provided, law enforcement will be back with a TAN to compel compliance.<br></div><div></div><div><br> </div><div>I go through this in excruciating detail in my supplementary submission, which is now up on the PJCIS website.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards</div><div><br></div><div>Paul Wilkins<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 16:48, Paul Brooks <<a href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="m_-241685899589912708moz-cite-prefix">On 28/11/2018 3:42 pm, Paul Wilkins
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
I'm less concerned that the State may ask a judge for a
computer warrant, than I am the Attorney General issuing TCNs
to access carrier metadata datastreams and using that for mass
surveillance, or law enforcement then forcing patches on
service providers for my phone/television to enable the mike
and camera's for surveillance because I've triggered some kind
of Minority Report scenario, because, you know, they're doing
their job and in the AG's opinion it's reasonable.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Much as I hate to defend something that is indefensible on other
grounds, part of this particular concern seems to be already
protected.</p>
<p>See Sect 317(T) (the bit regarding TCNs)</p>
<p>Part (10):</p>
<p> 'A technical capability notice has no effect to the extent (if
any) to which it requires a designated communications provider to
keep, or cause to be kept:<br>
(a) information of a kind specified in or under
section 187AA of the Telecommunications (Interception and Access)
Act 1979; or<br>
(b) documents containing information of that kind;<br>
relating to any communication carried by means of a service to
which Part 5 1A of the Telecommunications (Interception and
Access) Act 1979 applies.<br>
Note: Part 5 1A of the Telecommunications (Interception and
Access) Act 1979 deals with data retention.'</p>
<p>In other words - they can't issue a TCN to keep more metadata. Or
to be sent a stream of metadata.</p>
<p>Also Part (2):</p>
<p>'The specified acts or things must:<br>
(a) be directed towards ensuring that the designated
communications provider <b>is capable</b> of giving listed help
to ASIO, or an interception agency, in relation to:<br>
(i) the performance of a function, or the
exercise of a power, conferred by or under a law of the
Commonwealth, a State or a Territory, so far as the function or
power relates to a relevant objective; or<br>
(ii) a matter that facilitates, or is
ancillary or incidental to, a matter covered by subparagraph (i);
or<br>
(b) be by way of giving help to ASIO, or an interception
agency, in relation to:<br>
(i) the performance of a function, or the
exercise of a power, conferred by or under a law of the
Commonwealth, a State or a Territory, so far as the function or
power relates to a relevant objective; or<br>
(ii) a matter that facilitates, or is
ancillary or incidental to, a matter covered by subparagraph (i).</p>
<p>'</p>
<p>In other words - they can ask you to do something to make sure
you are *capable* of giving help under some other law. But you
don't have to actually do the thing under that other law to
satisfy the TCN, they'll issue you a separate warrant or request
to actively use that capability, under that other law, if they
need you to actively use it in practice.</p>
<p>The TCN is to require you to make sure you have an easily
undoable buckle on your belt, in case they have to ask you to bend
over under another law, and to ensure you can't reply 'Sorry, I
cant do that' when they do ask you to bend over under that other
law. But they can't ask you to actually bend over in the TCN
itself.</p>
<p>Of course, this all relies on them not asking, or if they do, on
the recipient of the notice having enough knowledge of the law to
respond 'under Sect (XXX) you can't do that'. Which is where
additional independent judiciary scrutiny of a request before it
is issued is required.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Paul.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<span lang="EN-US"> </span>
<p>P.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
In the case of the computer warrant, Law Enforcement have to
allege a specific breach of the criminal code, and establish
evidentiary grounds this crime is being committed to a judge's
satisfaction. Much in the Assistance and Access Bill leaves
Law Enforcement as the decision makers as to what and how is
to be investigated. It is actually possible to simultaneously
want to see the rule of law be enforced, but without
establishing the machinery of a police state.<br>
<br>
Kind regards<br>
<br>
Paul Wilkins<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, 28 Nov 2018 at 13:43, Mark Smith <<a href="mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com" target="_blank">markzzzsmith@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On Wed, 28
Nov 2018 at 11:29, Scott Weeks <<a href="mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com" target="_blank">surfer@mauigateway.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --- <a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
> From: Paul Wilkins <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>><br>
><br>
> I do think (and it's not a generally popular position)
that<br>
> the internet does need to, and is going to be, regulated.<br>
> ----------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
><br>
> No. Absolutely does not need to be and cannot be anyway,<br>
> unless you do a China. Maybe this is what they're
jealous<br>
> of? Total control over the media and all information.<br>
> Like, you know, the Dark Ages...<br>
><br>
<br>
I agree.<br>
<br>
I wonder what Paul specifically thinks needs to be regulated.
If it is<br>
a general view, rather than a specific one, then Paul has<br>
authoritarian beliefs (in other words, just the idea that
somebody can<br>
do something without first seeking and being given permission
is an<br>
anathema).<br>
<br>
The fundamental and most significant benefit of the Internet
has been<br>
that its architecture has permitted permissionless innovation,
through<br>
application protocol transparency in the network. To deploy a
new<br>
application or service over the Internet, you do not have to
seek<br>
permission of a telco for them to carry your traffic.<br>
<br>
IPv4 NATs have significantly limited the Internet's
transparency,<br>
which is why people have been creating an ad hoc and more
transparent<br>
virtual overlay network over the Internet using UDP - "UDP
over IPv4 –<br>
a stepping stone to IPv6?" -<br>
<a href="https://blog.apnic.net/2017/03/24/udp-ipv4-stepping-stone-ipv6/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://blog.apnic.net/2017/03/24/udp-ipv4-stepping-stone-ipv6/</a>
.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Mark.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> scott<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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><br>
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