<div dir="ltr">Wondering what the implications of this bill and the recent China was stealing our traffic....<div><br></div><div>So in theory could china steal / sniff our traffic and because of these weakening of encryption allow china to snope on our stuff </div><div><br></div><div>A</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 11:32, Paul Wilkins <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Unfortunately, we're being played, by the Trumpist rump in the Liberal Party.</div><div><br></div><div>Problem for the rest of the Liberals is that they're expected to fall into line behind a minority of the party.</div><div><br></div><div>The PJCIS will hear and consider Human Rights arguments, because they're not all Liberals, and not all the Liberals on the PJCIS are invested in blowing up our democratic institutions.</div><div><br></div><div>Morrison can't pass this Bill without Labor's support and hopes to wedge them on terrorism.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I can't see that Labor are especially invested in this Bill passing. As things look today, it will be a Labor government administering it, and they are more likely to want to pass their own rather than have to deal with the Human Rights gaps, mass surveillance implications, technical anomalies, and broken multi agency framework.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards</div><div><br></div><div>Paul Wilkins<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 at 16:48, Paul Brooks <<a href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au" target="_blank">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="m_-7207449884642267387m_798889347885825807moz-cite-prefix">Forget Human Rights arguments...or the
      next few sessions of PJCIS...<br>
      <br>
      PM urges parliament to pass encryption law (within two weeks)
<a class="m_-7207449884642267387m_798889347885825807moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/22/14/44/pm-urges-parliament-to-pass-encryption-law" target="_blank">https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/22/14/44/pm-urges-parliament-to-pass-encryption-law</a><br>
      <br>
      Australian PM insists on encryption-busting Bill being passed in
      next sitting fortnight<br>
<a class="m_-7207449884642267387m_798889347885825807moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.zdnet.com/article/australian-pm-insists-on-encryption-busting-bill-being-passed-in-next-sitting-fortnight/" target="_blank">https://www.zdnet.com/article/australian-pm-insists-on-encryption-busting-bill-being-passed-in-next-sitting-fortnight/</a><br>
      <br>
      <br>
      (Paul, FWIW, I raised the Human Rights arguments last time I was
      in Canberra. The UN Declarations of Human Rights include
      paragraphs enabling governments to curtail those human rights if
      needed to catch criminals, prevent crime, protect citizens. They
      be more what you'd call 'guidelines', than actual rules. The Govt
      thinks they are doing this to catch criminals and protect the
      public, and that these laws are perfectly compatible with the UN
      Human Rights ideas - despite the UN Rapporteur suggesting
      otherwise)<br>
       <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 22/11/2018 3:01 PM, Paul Wilkins wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div dir="ltr">"And FWIW, I've found arguments that lean
              towards demonstrating the measures are impractical,
              infeasible, risky, or likely to cause embarassment tend to
              be more powerful than arguments leaning on philosophy -
              arguments like "you shouldn't even be wanting to do this
              because we're a liberal democracy" aren't likely to wash
              as much as 'if thats what you're trying to achieve, doing
              like that won't work or is very risky because...'"</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Both technical criticisms and the human rights
              criticisms are valid, with perhaps a slight tilt towards
              the technical, because governments are less likely to try
              to do something impossible rather than unlawful. Because
              of our status as signatory to the Declaration of Human
              Rights, there are limits that invasions of the right to
              privacy and the right to private property, must be
              necessary and proportionate. The Department of Home
              Affairs will do themselves no favours to create an
              evidentiary framework, only to be thrown out by the courts
              because the evidentiary chain was unlawful.<br>
              <br>
              Kind regards<br>
              <br>
              Paul Wilkins<br>
              <br>
            </div>
            <div class="gmail_quote">
              <div dir="ltr">On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 at 14:34, Paul Wilkins
                <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>>
                wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <div dir="ltr">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div><i>"it's going to our government"</i></div>
                      <div><i><br>
                        </i></div>
                      <div>Well actually no. Not since Wentworth. The
                        government can't pass bills without either Labor
                        or the cross benchers, so it's highly risorous
                        the Home Affairs Minister thinks this an
                        opportune time to give the PJCIS the hurry
                        along.<i><br>
                        </i></div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>He also presents himself and department as
                        unanswerable to the PJCHR, who go to volumes in
                        their criticisms.<i><br>
                        </i></div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div dir="ltr">On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 at 10:43, Bradley
                    Silverman <<a href="mailto:bsilverman@staff.ventraip.com" target="_blank">bsilverman@staff.ventraip.com</a>>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div dir="ltr"><i>"no thinking person" - </i>That's
                        the problem, it's not going to thinking people,
                        it's going to our government...<br clear="all">
                        <div>
                          <div dir="ltr" class="m_-7207449884642267387m_798889347885825807gmail-m_1783100445380044602m_-1890550153502245563m_-5251849838322123878gmail_signature">
                            <table cellspacing="0px">
                              <tbody>
                                <tr>
                                  <td><img src="https://static.ventraip.com.au/email/ventraip-corporate-mail-gif.gif" alt="VentraIP Australia logo" height="55" width="55"></td>
                                  <td style="padding-left:8px">
                                    <p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;line-height:1.5"><b>Bradley
                                          Silverman<br>
                                        </b>Technical Operations \\
                                        VentraIP Australia<br>
                                        <b>M: </b>+61 418 641 103 | <b>P:</b> +61
                                        3 9013 8464 | <a href="https://ventraip.com.au/" target="_blank">ventraip.com.au</a></span></p>
                                  </td>
                                </tr>
                              </tbody>
                            </table>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <br>
                    <div class="gmail_quote">
                      <div dir="ltr">On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 10:17 AM
                        Paul Wilkins <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>>
                        wrote:<br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div dir="ltr">
                            <div>I can't agree that whether the Bill
                              passes at this stage comes down to simple
                              numbers along party lines.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>1 - The Bill is simply too far reaching
                              in consequences for parliament to wave it
                              through. With power comes responsibility.
                              The Bill is attracting huge condemnation
                              internationally, and those supporting the
                              Bill risk looking like chumps. It's a bit
                              like global warming, no one who knows what
                              they're talking about thinks this is a
                              good idea.<br>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>2 - The Department for Home Affairs put
                              this Bill together, and Dutton arrived at
                              the tail end of the process. Although he
                              might like to distance himself from the
                              legislation, the buck ultimately stops
                              with him as he introduced and commended
                              the Bill to the House.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>3 - The Bill is more Trumpist than
                              Liberal. Even if it's bad law and bad for
                              Liberal Democracy, it's good politics for
                              the Liberal Trumpists.<br>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>4 - If Labor knocks it back in the
                              Lower House, I can't see it getting
                              through without some sort of deal being
                              struck with one of the cross benchers.
                              Because no thinking person sees this Bill
                              as a good move, there will be no Lower
                              House deal without a serious quid pro quo.
                              Then there would need to be another deal
                              in the Upper House, with differently
                              aligned cross benchers.<br>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Kind regards</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Paul Wilkins<br>
                            </div>
                            <div> <br>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br>
                        <div class="gmail_quote">
                          <div dir="ltr">On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 22:44,
                            Bryan O'Reilly <<a href="mailto:bryan@telcoindependent.com.au" target="_blank">bryan@telcoindependent.com.au</a>>
                            wrote:<br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                            <div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-AU">
                              <div class="m_-7207449884642267387m_798889347885825807gmail-m_1783100445380044602m_-1890550153502245563m_-5251849838322123878m_6134971255723171421m_7139046650254784953WordSection1">
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hi Paul,</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span>I’m looking
                                    forward to your Lunchtime Lecture
                                    next week on this topic!</span></p>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Kind
                                      regards,<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Bryan O'Reilly<br>
                                      Founder - Telco Independent
                                      Consulting<br>
                                      <a href="http://www.telcoindependent.com.au/" target="_blank">www.telcoindependent.com.au</a></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">0419
                                      632 098<br>
                                      <br>
                                      30+ years experience to provide
                                      YOUR business with independent
                                      advice.</span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">FaceBook;
                                      <a href="https://www.facebook.com/TelcoIndependent/" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/TelcoIndependent/</a></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">LinkedIN;
                                      <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanoreilly/" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanoreilly/</a></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><img style="width:2.1979in;height:1.6145in" id="m_-7207449884642267387m_798889347885825807gmail-m_1783100445380044602m_-1890550153502245563m_-5251849838322123878m_6134971255723171421m_7139046650254784953Picture_x0020_1" alt="rsz_rsz_1rsz_screen_shot_2016-11-03_at_33423_pm" height="155" width="211" border="0"><img style="width:1.4062in;height:0.8541in" id="m_-7207449884642267387m_798889347885825807gmail-m_1783100445380044602m_-1890550153502245563m_-5251849838322123878m_6134971255723171421m_7139046650254784953Picture_x0020_2" height="82" width="135" border="0"></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:rgb(168,168,168)">Important:<br>
                                      This message may contain
                                      confidential or privileged
                                      information. If you are not
                                      the intended recipient of this
                                      message, you must not take any
                                      action based on the contents
                                      herein, except to advise us of the
                                      error and destroy the message. </span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:rgb(168,168,168)">Any documents
                                      or other information that may be
                                      in this email is copyright © Telco
                                      Independent Consulting 2018.</span><span style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif"></span></p>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
                                <div>
                                  <div style="border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
                                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> AusNOG <<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>>
                                        <b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Brooks<br>
                                        <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 21
                                        November 2018 5:18 PM<br>
                                        <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
                                        <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG]
                                        Assistance and Access Bill moves
                                        to PJCIS</span></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Rob. <br>
                                    In the latest, Dutton wants to speed
                                    up the Bill and have it passed "next
                                    week", and has apparently asked the
                                    PJCIS to cut short its evaluation,
                                    according to reporting of an
                                    interview on Sky News.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    <a href="https://www.itnews.com.au/news/dutton-tries-to-speed-up-encryption-bill-515862" target="_blank">Dutton
                                      tries to speed up encryption bill</a><br>
                                    <br>
                                    (Point of clarification - that bit
                                    about smart and dumb criminals was
                                    while trying to explain the
                                    difference between a system having a
                                    capability that can be used by the
                                    operator to implement a "act or
                                    thing", and an operator actually
                                    using that capability in a
                                    particular instance against a
                                    particular target - and that the
                                    existence of the capability isn't
                                    and shouldn't be secret, even if the
                                    actual use in response to a warrant
                                    was still kept a secret.  That
                                    distinction has been difficult for
                                    the committee to understand without
                                    a simple illustration.)<br>
                                    <br>
                                    <br>
                                    Paul.<br>
                                    <br>
                                    <br>
                                    On 21/11/2018 2:00 PM, Robert Hudson
                                    wrote:</p>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
                                  <div>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">(Not
                                      necessarily a direct response to
                                      Paul's email, just additional data
                                      for the thread). </p>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">Traditional
                                        media are starting to pick this
                                        up, and they're just parroting
                                        the govt position. Macquarie
                                        Radio news at 8am ran a story on
                                        it this morning, and it was all
                                        about Dutton saying he wants the
                                        legislation passed quickly so
                                        they can catch more terrorists.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">Other than
                                        the point well made by Paul
                                        Brooks that the only criminals
                                        who will be caught by this are
                                        the dumb ones (there was a link
                                        made between this proposed
                                        legislation and three potential
                                        terrorists were were arrested -
                                        without this legislation in
                                        place), and the smarter
                                        criminals (ie those capable of
                                        tieing their own shoe laces)
                                        will simply use software that is
                                        not subject to the legislation,
                                        there is an extension - to break
                                        the encryption WILL involve
                                        creating vulnerabilities
                                        (there's simply no way around
                                        this), and those vulnerabilities
                                        will then be available for
                                        criminals (the bar may be higher
                                        than shoelaces, maybe they can
                                        button their own shirts as well)
                                        to exploit and compromise data
                                        that is legitimately encrypted.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">In summary -
                                        there is no upside to this
                                        proposed legislation as far as
                                        encryption goes, and there is a
                                        significant potential downside.</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">It cannot be
                                        allowed to pass.</p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, 21
                                        Nov. 2018, 12:09 pm Paul Wilkins
                                        <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>
                                        wrote:</p>
                                    </div>
                                    <blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
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                                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I'm
                                            wondering when the other
                                            shoe will drop that the Bill
                                            enables mass collection and
                                            analysis of metadata without
                                            any further legislation
                                            needed. Or the implications
                                            that metadata from multiple
                                            sources (phone
                                            towers/CCTV/Social Media),
                                            lays the foundations for the
                                            establishment of the
                                            machinery of a police state.
                                            Of course, this will make
                                            prosecution of crime
                                            straightforward (the police
                                            will only need to correlate
                                            crime against a database of
                                            the public's electronic
                                            fingerprints). However, such
                                            powerful machinery can be
                                            used for oppressive
                                            purposes, and the Bill is
                                            absent the checks and
                                            balances consistent with the
                                            traditions and institutions
                                            of Liberal Democracy.<br>
                                             <br>
                                            If one were cynical you
                                            might think the Bill's
                                            outrageous overreach is
                                            deliberate, a Trumpist ploy
                                            to enrage the unthinking.
                                            And when we see critics of
                                            the Bill slandered for being
                                            weak on terrorism, maybe not
                                            so wide of the mark or so
                                            cynical.<br>
                                            <br>
                                            Kind regards<br>
                                            <br>
                                            Paul Wilkins</p>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal">On Wed,
                                            21 Nov 2018 at 04:15, Scott
                                            Weeks <<a href="mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com" target="_blank">surfer@mauigateway.com</a>>
                                            wrote:</p>
                                        </div>
                                        <blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                                            <br>
                                            On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at
                                            18:12, Christian Heinrich<br>
                                            <<a href="mailto:christian.heinrich@cmlh.id.au" target="_blank">christian.heinrich@cmlh.id.au</a>>
                                            wrote:<br>
                                            > <a href="https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/victoria-police-arrest-three-people-allegedly-planning-a-terror-attack-in-melbourne/news-story/e6a92273b37dce750937e1e0f86a7dcd" target="_blank">https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/victoria-police-arrest-three-people-allegedly-planning-a-terror-attack-in-melbourne/news-story/e6a92273b37dce750937e1e0f86a7dcd</a><br>
                                            > has quoted Mr Dutton on
                                            WhatsApp again but from my
                                            reading WhatsApp<br>
                                            > was not used in this
                                            specific case?<br>
                                            <br>
                                            This has now been alleged
                                            within<br>
                                            <a href="https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/mobile-phones/unacceptable-risk-the-secret-way-terrorists-and-criminals-are-communicating/news-story/731ca32e7432601d6b3ce5ca4f34bf80" target="_blank">https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/mobile-phones/unacceptable-risk-the-secret-way-terrorists-and-criminals-are-communicating/news-story/731ca32e7432601d6b3ce5ca4f34bf80</a><br>
-----------------------------------------------------<br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            These stories read like
                                            gov't scare tactics.  Scare
                                            people <br>
                                            enough and they'll 'give up
                                            liberty for a little
                                            safety'.<br>
                                            They do not read like
                                            objective journalism.'<br>
                                            <br>
                                            How did they catch everyone
                                            without eliminating privacy<br>
                                            anyway?  Good ol' police
                                            work?<br>
                                            <br>
                                            scott<br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
                                            <br>
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