<div dir="ltr"><div>Unfortunately, we're being played, by the Trumpist rump in the Liberal Party.</div><div><br></div><div>Problem for the rest of the Liberals is that they're expected to fall into line behind a minority of the party.</div><div><br></div><div>The PJCIS will hear and consider Human Rights arguments, because they're not all Liberals, and not all the Liberals on the PJCIS are invested in blowing up our democratic institutions.</div><div><br></div><div>Morrison can't pass this Bill without Labor's support and hopes to wedge them on terrorism.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I can't see that Labor are especially invested in this Bill passing. As things look today, it will be a Labor government administering it, and they are more likely to want to pass their own rather than have to deal with the Human Rights gaps, mass surveillance implications, technical anomalies, and broken multi agency framework.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards</div><div><br></div><div>Paul Wilkins<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 at 16:48, Paul Brooks <<a href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="m_798889347885825807moz-cite-prefix">Forget Human Rights arguments...or the
next few sessions of PJCIS...<br>
<br>
PM urges parliament to pass encryption law (within two weeks)
<a class="m_798889347885825807moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/22/14/44/pm-urges-parliament-to-pass-encryption-law" target="_blank">https://www.9news.com.au/2018/11/22/14/44/pm-urges-parliament-to-pass-encryption-law</a><br>
<br>
Australian PM insists on encryption-busting Bill being passed in
next sitting fortnight<br>
<a class="m_798889347885825807moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.zdnet.com/article/australian-pm-insists-on-encryption-busting-bill-being-passed-in-next-sitting-fortnight/" target="_blank">https://www.zdnet.com/article/australian-pm-insists-on-encryption-busting-bill-being-passed-in-next-sitting-fortnight/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
(Paul, FWIW, I raised the Human Rights arguments last time I was
in Canberra. The UN Declarations of Human Rights include
paragraphs enabling governments to curtail those human rights if
needed to catch criminals, prevent crime, protect citizens. They
be more what you'd call 'guidelines', than actual rules. The Govt
thinks they are doing this to catch criminals and protect the
public, and that these laws are perfectly compatible with the UN
Human Rights ideas - despite the UN Rapporteur suggesting
otherwise)<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 22/11/2018 3:01 PM, Paul Wilkins wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">"And FWIW, I've found arguments that lean
towards demonstrating the measures are impractical,
infeasible, risky, or likely to cause embarassment tend to
be more powerful than arguments leaning on philosophy -
arguments like "you shouldn't even be wanting to do this
because we're a liberal democracy" aren't likely to wash
as much as 'if thats what you're trying to achieve, doing
like that won't work or is very risky because...'"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Both technical criticisms and the human rights
criticisms are valid, with perhaps a slight tilt towards
the technical, because governments are less likely to try
to do something impossible rather than unlawful. Because
of our status as signatory to the Declaration of Human
Rights, there are limits that invasions of the right to
privacy and the right to private property, must be
necessary and proportionate. The Department of Home
Affairs will do themselves no favours to create an
evidentiary framework, only to be thrown out by the courts
because the evidentiary chain was unlawful.<br>
<br>
Kind regards<br>
<br>
Paul Wilkins<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 at 14:34, Paul Wilkins
<<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><i>"it's going to our government"</i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div>Well actually no. Not since Wentworth. The
government can't pass bills without either Labor
or the cross benchers, so it's highly risorous
the Home Affairs Minister thinks this an
opportune time to give the PJCIS the hurry
along.<i><br>
</i></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>He also presents himself and department as
unanswerable to the PJCHR, who go to volumes in
their criticisms.<i><br>
</i></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 at 10:43, Bradley
Silverman <<a href="mailto:bsilverman@staff.ventraip.com" target="_blank">bsilverman@staff.ventraip.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><i>"no thinking person" - </i>That's
the problem, it's not going to thinking people,
it's going to our government...<br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="m_798889347885825807gmail-m_1783100445380044602m_-1890550153502245563m_-5251849838322123878gmail_signature">
<table cellspacing="0px">
<tbody>
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<td style="padding-left:8px">
<p><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;line-height:1.5"><b>Bradley
Silverman<br>
</b>Technical Operations \\
VentraIP Australia<br>
<b>M: </b>+61 418 641 103 | <b>P:</b> +61
3 9013 8464 | <a href="https://ventraip.com.au/" target="_blank">ventraip.com.au</a></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 10:17 AM
Paul Wilkins <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>I can't agree that whether the Bill
passes at this stage comes down to simple
numbers along party lines.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1 - The Bill is simply too far reaching
in consequences for parliament to wave it
through. With power comes responsibility.
The Bill is attracting huge condemnation
internationally, and those supporting the
Bill risk looking like chumps. It's a bit
like global warming, no one who knows what
they're talking about thinks this is a
good idea.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2 - The Department for Home Affairs put
this Bill together, and Dutton arrived at
the tail end of the process. Although he
might like to distance himself from the
legislation, the buck ultimately stops
with him as he introduced and commended
the Bill to the House.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3 - The Bill is more Trumpist than
Liberal. Even if it's bad law and bad for
Liberal Democracy, it's good politics for
the Liberal Trumpists.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>4 - If Labor knocks it back in the
Lower House, I can't see it getting
through without some sort of deal being
struck with one of the cross benchers.
Because no thinking person sees this Bill
as a good move, there will be no Lower
House deal without a serious quid pro quo.
Then there would need to be another deal
in the Upper House, with differently
aligned cross benchers.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Paul Wilkins<br>
</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 22:44,
Bryan O'Reilly <<a href="mailto:bryan@telcoindependent.com.au" target="_blank">bryan@telcoindependent.com.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-AU">
<div class="m_798889347885825807gmail-m_1783100445380044602m_-1890550153502245563m_-5251849838322123878m_6134971255723171421m_7139046650254784953WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Hi Paul,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I’m looking
forward to your Lunchtime Lecture
next week on this topic!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">Kind
regards,<br>
<br>
Bryan O'Reilly<br>
Founder - Telco Independent
Consulting<br>
<a href="http://www.telcoindependent.com.au/" target="_blank">www.telcoindependent.com.au</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">0419
632 098<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:rgb(168,168,168)">Important:<br>
This message may contain
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US"> AusNOG <<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Brooks<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 21
November 2018 5:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG]
Assistance and Access Bill moves
to PJCIS</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Rob. <br>
In the latest, Dutton wants to speed
up the Bill and have it passed "next
week", and has apparently asked the
PJCIS to cut short its evaluation,
according to reporting of an
interview on Sky News.<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.itnews.com.au/news/dutton-tries-to-speed-up-encryption-bill-515862" target="_blank">Dutton
tries to speed up encryption bill</a><br>
<br>
(Point of clarification - that bit
about smart and dumb criminals was
while trying to explain the
difference between a system having a
capability that can be used by the
operator to implement a "act or
thing", and an operator actually
using that capability in a
particular instance against a
particular target - and that the
existence of the capability isn't
and shouldn't be secret, even if the
actual use in response to a warrant
was still kept a secret. That
distinction has been difficult for
the committee to understand without
a simple illustration.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 21/11/2018 2:00 PM, Robert Hudson
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">(Not
necessarily a direct response to
Paul's email, just additional data
for the thread). </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Traditional
media are starting to pick this
up, and they're just parroting
the govt position. Macquarie
Radio news at 8am ran a story on
it this morning, and it was all
about Dutton saying he wants the
legislation passed quickly so
they can catch more terrorists.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Other than
the point well made by Paul
Brooks that the only criminals
who will be caught by this are
the dumb ones (there was a link
made between this proposed
legislation and three potential
terrorists were were arrested -
without this legislation in
place), and the smarter
criminals (ie those capable of
tieing their own shoe laces)
will simply use software that is
not subject to the legislation,
there is an extension - to break
the encryption WILL involve
creating vulnerabilities
(there's simply no way around
this), and those vulnerabilities
will then be available for
criminals (the bar may be higher
than shoelaces, maybe they can
button their own shirts as well)
to exploit and compromise data
that is legitimately encrypted.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In summary -
there is no upside to this
proposed legislation as far as
encryption goes, and there is a
significant potential downside.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It cannot be
allowed to pass.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, 21
Nov. 2018, 12:09 pm Paul Wilkins
<<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt">I'm
wondering when the other
shoe will drop that the Bill
enables mass collection and
analysis of metadata without
any further legislation
needed. Or the implications
that metadata from multiple
sources (phone
towers/CCTV/Social Media),
lays the foundations for the
establishment of the
machinery of a police state.
Of course, this will make
prosecution of crime
straightforward (the police
will only need to correlate
crime against a database of
the public's electronic
fingerprints). However, such
powerful machinery can be
used for oppressive
purposes, and the Bill is
absent the checks and
balances consistent with the
traditions and institutions
of Liberal Democracy.<br>
<br>
If one were cynical you
might think the Bill's
outrageous overreach is
deliberate, a Trumpist ploy
to enrage the unthinking.
And when we see critics of
the Bill slandered for being
weak on terrorism, maybe not
so wide of the mark or so
cynical.<br>
<br>
Kind regards<br>
<br>
Paul Wilkins</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed,
21 Nov 2018 at 04:15, Scott
Weeks <<a href="mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com" target="_blank">surfer@mauigateway.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at
18:12, Christian Heinrich<br>
<<a href="mailto:christian.heinrich@cmlh.id.au" target="_blank">christian.heinrich@cmlh.id.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <a href="https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/victoria-police-arrest-three-people-allegedly-planning-a-terror-attack-in-melbourne/news-story/e6a92273b37dce750937e1e0f86a7dcd" target="_blank">https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/victoria-police-arrest-three-people-allegedly-planning-a-terror-attack-in-melbourne/news-story/e6a92273b37dce750937e1e0f86a7dcd</a><br>
> has quoted Mr Dutton on
WhatsApp again but from my
reading WhatsApp<br>
> was not used in this
specific case?<br>
<br>
This has now been alleged
within<br>
<a href="https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/mobile-phones/unacceptable-risk-the-secret-way-terrorists-and-criminals-are-communicating/news-story/731ca32e7432601d6b3ce5ca4f34bf80" target="_blank">https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/mobile-phones/unacceptable-risk-the-secret-way-terrorists-and-criminals-are-communicating/news-story/731ca32e7432601d6b3ce5ca4f34bf80</a><br>
-----------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
These stories read like
gov't scare tactics. Scare
people <br>
enough and they'll 'give up
liberty for a little
safety'.<br>
They do not read like
objective journalism.'<br>
<br>
How did they catch everyone
without eliminating privacy<br>
anyway? Good ol' police
work?<br>
<br>
scott<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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