<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21/11/2018 6:33 PM, Robert Hudson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAOu9xNK=0CbLQy_GQ6aidpWgAc8Zph64nBz4afJaBrfNrZp-+g@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div dir="auto">I sent an email to my local (LNP) MP, who
forwarded it to Dutton, who sent a letter back on lovely heavy
paper stock.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Dutton of course completely missed the point,
not least of all because he wants to miss the point as it is
inconvenient for his agenda).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
Its a reasonable start, and good on you for writing the letter -
Dutton of course will feel that you are completely missing the
point, because you're both arguing different points. <br>
<br>
The important thing is that, if this thing is pushed back into
Parliament, its the lower house MPs and Upper House Senators that
will be voting on this, and probably voting along party lines.
Neither you, now I, or anybody else on this list gets to participate
in that vote.<br>
<br>
Minister Dutton is unlikely to change his mind, no matter how many
people write to him - in his mind he's doing this to protect the
people, and anyone thinking thats a poor idea must be against
protecting the people. Also, now its a matter of pride and personal
embarrassment if he was to back down now - so that is unlikely to
happen, even if you manage to shake his private conviction that its
all for the greater good.<br>
<br>
To influence that vote, letters and briefings to other MPs and
senators on all sides, to work to influence each major Party (and
the independents) view of the Bill is more likely to have an effect
on the voting numbers.<br>
<br>
And FWIW, I've found arguments that lean towards demonstrating the
measures are impractical, infeasible, risky, or likely to cause
embarassment tend to be more powerful than arguments leaning on
philosophy - arguments like "you shouldn't even be wanting to do
this because we're a liberal democracy" aren't likely to wash as
much as 'if thats what you're trying to achieve, doing like that
won't work or is very risky because...' <br>
<br>
Paul.<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAOu9xNK=0CbLQy_GQ6aidpWgAc8Zph64nBz4afJaBrfNrZp-+g@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="auto">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">If anyone wants a scanned copy (could be useful
for determining a point of weakness in the argument he and
DOHA are pushing, I'm happy to share.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, 21 Nov. 2018, 5:18 pm Paul Brooks <<a
href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="m_-4320473818714955642moz-cite-prefix">Thanks
Rob. <br>
In the latest, Dutton wants to speed up the Bill and have
it passed "next week", and has apparently asked the PJCIS
to cut short its evaluation, according to reporting of an
interview on Sky News.<br>
<br>
<a
href="https://www.itnews.com.au/news/dutton-tries-to-speed-up-encryption-bill-515862"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">Dutton
tries to speed up encryption bill</a><br>
<br>
(Point of clarification - that bit about smart and dumb
criminals was while trying to explain the difference
between a system having a capability that can be used by
the operator to implement a "act or thing", and an
operator actually using that capability in a particular
instance against a particular target - and that the
existence of the capability isn't and shouldn't be secret,
even if the actual use in response to a warrant was still
kept a secret. That distinction has been difficult for
the committee to understand without a simple
illustration.)<br>
<br>
<br>
Paul.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 21/11/2018 2:00 PM, Robert Hudson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">(Not necessarily a direct response to
Paul's email, just additional data for the thread).
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Traditional media are starting to pick
this up, and they're just parroting the govt position.
Macquarie Radio news at 8am ran a story on it this
morning, and it was all about Dutton saying he wants
the legislation passed quickly so they can catch more
terrorists.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Other than the point well made by Paul
Brooks that the only criminals who will be caught by
this are the dumb ones (there was a link made between
this proposed legislation and three potential
terrorists were were arrested - without this
legislation in place), and the smarter criminals (ie
those capable of tieing their own shoe laces) will
simply use software that is not subject to the
legislation, there is an extension - to break the
encryption WILL involve creating vulnerabilities
(there's simply no way around this), and those
vulnerabilities will then be available for criminals
(the bar may be higher than shoelaces, maybe they can
button their own shirts as well) to exploit and
compromise data that is legitimately encrypted.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">In summary - there is no upside to this
proposed legislation as far as encryption goes, and
there is a significant potential downside.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">It cannot be allowed to pass.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, 21 Nov. 2018, 12:09 pm Paul
Wilkins <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">I'm wondering when the other shoe
will drop that the Bill enables mass collection
and analysis of metadata without any further
legislation needed. Or the implications that
metadata from multiple sources (phone
towers/CCTV/Social Media), lays the foundations
for the establishment of the machinery of a police
state. Of course, this will make prosecution of
crime straightforward (the police will only need
to correlate crime against a database of the
public's electronic fingerprints). However, such
powerful machinery can be used for oppressive
purposes, and the Bill is absent the checks and
balances consistent with the traditions and
institutions of Liberal Democracy.<br>
<br>
If one were cynical you might think the Bill's
outrageous overreach is deliberate, a Trumpist
ploy to enrage the unthinking. And when we see
critics of the Bill slandered for being weak on
terrorism, maybe not so wide of the mark or so
cynical.<br>
<br>
Kind regards<br>
<br>
Paul Wilkins<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr">On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 at 04:15, Scott
Weeks <<a href="mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">surfer@mauigateway.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 18:12, Christian Heinrich<br>
<<a href="mailto:christian.heinrich@cmlh.id.au"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">christian.heinrich@cmlh.id.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <a
href="https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/victoria-police-arrest-three-people-allegedly-planning-a-terror-attack-in-melbourne/news-story/e6a92273b37dce750937e1e0f86a7dcd"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/victoria-police-arrest-three-people-allegedly-planning-a-terror-attack-in-melbourne/news-story/e6a92273b37dce750937e1e0f86a7dcd</a><br>
> has quoted Mr Dutton on WhatsApp again but
from my reading WhatsApp<br>
> was not used in this specific case?<br>
<br>
This has now been alleged within<br>
<a
href="https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/mobile-phones/unacceptable-risk-the-secret-way-terrorists-and-criminals-are-communicating/news-story/731ca32e7432601d6b3ce5ca4f34bf80"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.news.com.au/technology/gadgets/mobile-phones/unacceptable-risk-the-secret-way-terrorists-and-criminals-are-communicating/news-story/731ca32e7432601d6b3ce5ca4f34bf80</a><br>
-----------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
<br>
These stories read like gov't scare tactics.
Scare people <br>
enough and they'll 'give up liberty for a little
safety'.<br>
They do not read like objective journalism.'<br>
<br>
How did they catch everyone without eliminating
privacy<br>
anyway? Good ol' police work?<br>
<br>
scott<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
AusNOG mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<a
href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
AusNOG mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<a
href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer
noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
AusNOG mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<a
href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset
class="m_-4320473818714955642mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
AusNOG mailing list
<a class="m_-4320473818714955642moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a>
<a class="m_-4320473818714955642moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
AusNOG mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
</body>
</html>