<div dir="ltr"><div>looks fine here! our first hops seem quite different to yours though, sounds more like an issue with your reseller than with TPG/AAPT/Pipe themselves</div><div><br></div><div>Tracing route to <a href="http://bundle-150.bdr02.mel11.vic.vocus.net.au">bundle-150.bdr02.mel11.vic.vocus.net.au</a> [114.31.196.55]</div><div>over a maximum of 30 hops:</div><div><br></div><div> 1 1 ms 1 ms 4 ms xxxx</div><div> 2 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms xxxx</div><div> 3 1 ms 1 ms <1 ms xxxx</div><div> 4 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms <a href="http://au-vi-1175-ipg-01-eth-trunk2.2005.tpgi.com.au">au-vi-1175-ipg-01-eth-trunk2.2005.tpgi.com.au</a> [203.220.216.29]</div><div> 5 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms <a href="http://nme-sot-dry-wgw1-be-20.tpgi.com.au">nme-sot-dry-wgw1-be-20.tpgi.com.au</a> [203.219.155.72]</div><div> 6 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms <a href="http://203-219-107-202.static.tpgi.com.au">203-219-107-202.static.tpgi.com.au</a> [203.219.107.202]</div><div> 7 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 119.225.19.209</div><div> 8 * * * Request timed out.</div><div> 9 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 59.154.142.238</div><div> 10 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms <a href="http://bundle-150.bdr02.mel11.vic.vocus.net.au">bundle-150.bdr02.mel11.vic.vocus.net.au</a> [114.31.</div><div>196.55]</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Brad Evans <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:brad@delion.com.au" target="_blank">brad@delion.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Could simply be that they don't peer with Vocus in Melbourne. How about other networks? Telstra, Optus, etc. I saw a similar thing with TPG/PIPE routing via WA to reach Vocus a couple of years back.<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
-Brad<br>
</font></span><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: AusNOG [mailto:<a href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog-bounces@lists.<wbr>ausnog.net</a>] On Behalf Of Sam McLeod<br>
Sent: Wednesday, 10 May 2017 2:24 PM<br>
To: Jay Dixon <<a href="mailto:jaybobo@gmail.com">jaybobo@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: <<a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>> <<a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] All Melbourne -> Melbourne Traffic Routing via Sydney with TPG/PIPE/Tronic<br>
<br>
Thanks for the info Jay,<br>
<br>
What does a traceroute to say to 114.31.196.55 look like?<br>
<br>
<br>
~# traceroute 103.75.204.2<br>
traceroute to 103.75.204.2 (103.75.204.2), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets<br>
<br>
1 <redacted> 2.017 ms 1.055 ms 0.918 ms<br>
2 <redacted> 0.305 ms 0.340 ms 0.230 ms<br>
3 <a href="http://ve2057.rv-376flinders-cer-01.tpg-telecom.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">ve2057.rv-376flinders-cer-01.<wbr>tpg-telecom.net</a> (203.192.88.161) 1.112 ms 1.943 ms 0.684 ms<br>
4 <a href="http://ve100.rv-376flinders-mlx-01.tpg-telecom.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">ve100.rv-376flinders-mlx-01.<wbr>tpg-telecom.net</a> (121.101.138.204)<br>
10.524 ms 10.549 ms 10.703 ms<br>
5 <a href="http://eth10-7.rn-400harris-mlx-03.tpg-telecom.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">eth10-7.rn-400harris-mlx-03.<wbr>tpg-telecom.net</a> (121.101.138.170)<br>
10.563 ms 11.888 ms 10.567 ms<br>
6 <a href="http://eth2-1.rn-639gardeners-mlx-02.tpg-telecom.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">eth2-1.rn-639gardeners-mlx-02.<wbr>tpg-telecom.net</a> (121.101.138.25)<br>
10.720 ms 10.835 ms 10.719 ms<br>
7 <a href="http://ve101.rn-639gardeners-cer-01.tpg-telecom.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">ve101.rn-639gardeners-cer-01.<wbr>tpg-telecom.net</a> (121.101.138.201)<br>
10.723 ms 10.621 ms 10.739 ms<br>
8 <a href="http://syd-apt-ros-wgw1-te-0-0-1-2.tpg.com.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">syd-apt-ros-wgw1-te-0-0-1-2.<wbr>tpg.com.au</a> (203.161.139.242) 11.269 ms<br>
12.102 ms 11.193 ms<br>
9 <a href="http://203-219-107-198.static.tpgi.com.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">203-219-107-198.static.tpgi.<wbr>com.au</a> (203.219.107.198) 11.372 ms<br>
11.656 ms 11.388 ms<br>
10 119.225.216.17 (119.225.216.17) 10.844 ms 10.935 ms 10.858 ms<br>
11 * * *<br>
12 * * *<br>
13 * * *<br>
14 * 59.154.142.40 (59.154.142.40) 11.235 ms 11.064 ms<br>
15 59.154.142.42 (59.154.142.42) 12.164 ms<br>
220.101.73.82 (220.101.73.82) 11.906 ms 11.733 ms<br>
16 <a href="http://bundle-108.cor03.syd03.nsw.vocus.net.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bundle-108.cor03.syd03.nsw.<wbr>vocus.net.au</a> (114.31.192.84) 13.164 ms<br>
220.101.73.82 (220.101.73.82) 13.246 ms 14.214 ms<br>
17 <a href="http://bundle-104.cor02.mel11.vic.vocus.net.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bundle-104.cor02.mel11.vic.<wbr>vocus.net.au</a> (114.31.192.61) 13.122 ms<br>
<a href="http://bundle-100.cor02.mel07.vic.vocus.net.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bundle-100.cor02.mel07.vic.<wbr>vocus.net.au</a> (114.31.196.177) 12.885 ms<br>
<a href="http://bundle-108.cor01.syd04.nsw.vocus.net.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bundle-108.cor01.syd04.nsw.<wbr>vocus.net.au</a> (114.31.192.86) 21.114 ms<br>
18 <a href="http://bundle-100.cor02.mel07.vic.vocus.net.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bundle-100.cor02.mel07.vic.<wbr>vocus.net.au</a> (114.31.196.177) 13.721 ms<br>
13.934 ms 13.948 ms<br>
19 <a href="http://bundle-150.bdr02.mel11.vic.vocus.net.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bundle-150.bdr02.mel11.vic.<wbr>vocus.net.au</a> (114.31.196.55) 19.819 ms<br>
<a href="http://ether8-cor1-mel3.bdr1.mel3.unitiwireless.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">ether8-cor1-mel3.bdr1.mel3.<wbr>unitiwireless.com</a> (103.75.204.2) 22.436<br>
ms !N<br>
<a href="http://bundle-150.bdr02.mel11.vic.vocus.net.au" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">bundle-150.bdr02.mel11.vic.<wbr>vocus.net.au</a> (114.31.196.55) 15.036 ms<br>
<br>
--<br>
Sam McLeod<br>
@s_mcleod | <a href="http://smcleod.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">smcleod.net</a><br>
<br>
Words are my own opinions and do not necessarily represent those of my employer or partners.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, 10 May 2017, at 02:15 PM, Jay Dixon wrote:<br>
> FWIW we're on a TPG/AAPT connection here and our routing is fine we<br>
> were on a PIPE/TPG connection at the previous office and i never noticed any issues with it.<br>
><br>
> On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Sam McLeod <<a href="mailto:ausnog@smcleod.net">ausnog@smcleod.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>> All I can say is wow - I've had tens, upon tens of responses to my post!<br>
>><br>
>> Thank you for the information that those of you who have contacted<br>
>> me have provided, it's certainly painted a consistently clear<br>
>> picture for me that resonates with my personal experiences of<br>
>> dealing with said companies.<br>
>><br>
>> As most replies were sent to me directly I shall obviously respect<br>
>> peoples privacy by not responding with their comments in the mailing<br>
>> list, however the general summary from what I'm hearing from people<br>
>> who have emailed me is:<br>
>><br>
>> * "TPG / AAPT / PIPE are not trustworthy and are likely BSing you /<br>
>> pulling the wool over your eyes."<br>
>> * "TPG / AAPT / PIPE / Tronic's routes do indeed look very wrong"<br>
>> and the situation I've described is "not good routing behaviour."<br>
>> * Other customers in Adelaide and Brisbane amongst others experience<br>
>> the same routing issues with TPG / AAPT / PIPE or Tronic.<br>
>> * They appear "not to have paid for a Melbourne POP/POI and are<br>
>> cheaping out on their network design."<br>
>> * Several responses were that people are in the works or about to<br>
>> "cancel their connections with them."<br>
>> * People have experiences "City -> Sydney -> Original City routing<br>
>> from PIPE... within their own rack in the same DC."<br>
>> * Multiple responses stating that after investigation "TPG/PIPE or<br>
>> Tronic's routing is 'broken' or 'insane'."<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Sam McLeod<br>
>> @s_mcleod | <a href="http://smcleod.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">smcleod.net</a><br>
>><br>
>> Words are my own opinions and do not necessarily represent those of<br>
>> my employer of partners.<br>
>><br>
>> ---<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, 10 May 2017, at 01:15 PM, Sam McLeod wrote:<br>
>> > Hi AusNOG,<br>
>><br>
>> I was wondering if anyone else uses TPG/PIPE/Tronic in Melbourne or<br>
>> another major city and has any input on this.<br>
>><br>
>> Essentially all our traffic is backhauled all the way up from<br>
>> Melbourne to Sydney and back, even if it’s destined for Melbourne.<br>
>><br>
>> I've been told by TPG/PIPE/Tronic (Tronic is a reseller of TPG/PIPE)<br>
>> that this is on purpose / by design:<br>
>><br>
>> ---<br>
>><br>
>> “This is by design …<br>
>><br>
>> When you get a connection with PIPE this is connected to their<br>
>> Sydney Data Center as this is their main core DC.<br>
>> Being the main core it has more bandwidth and all the main local and<br>
>> international connections are directly connected there.<br>
>> Where the Melbourne data center you peer to Sydney first before<br>
>> going out most of these links.<br>
>><br>
>> So we are told the extra latency from user to DC is worth it because<br>
>> from DC out you’ll get lower latency and better bandwidth available.”<br>
>><br>
>> ---<br>
>><br>
>> Which makes no sense to us as engineers as that’s not really how<br>
>> networks or the internet works, we've even have services directly<br>
>> from PIPE in the past which wasn't backhauled via Sydney.<br>
>><br>
>> This (along with peering) makes routing both nationally and<br>
>> internationally, for example a route that goes out our Vocus link to<br>
>> other ISPs here in Melbourne is 4-6 hops, whereas TPG/PIPE/Tronic is<br>
>> anywhere from 18 to 26 hops.<br>
>><br>
>> In addition to the odd network design, we experience weekly outages<br>
>> to TPG/PIPE/Tronic’s fibre services with devices / hops within their<br>
>> network failing and packets disappearing, when the reseller has<br>
>> logged tickets with TPG/PIPE the results have been one of two things<br>
>> 1) (The most common) – there were no problems or 2) There was a<br>
>> problem that affected traffic (no further information).<br>
>><br>
>> So as you can imagine, this is a bit frustrating, especially when<br>
>> we’ve been informed by our reseller that TPG/PIPE take 10 day to<br>
>> respond to a sev 1 production outage ticket that’s been logged with them.<br>
>><br>
>> Now we’ve been told by our reseller that we’re absolutely not<br>
>> allowed to log tickets directly with TPG/PIPE and must go through<br>
>> them and as we’re still within contract we’ve got our hands tied to a certain degree.<br>
>><br>
>> I’m not interested in having a whinge at TPG/PIPE/Tronic here, I’m<br>
>> genuinely interested in finding out if others have these problems as<br>
>> well and taking on any advice as to mitigating all the issues this<br>
>> causes.<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Sam McLeod<br>
>><br>
>> Words are my own opinions and do not necessarily represent those of<br>
>> my employer of partners.<br>
>> ><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>