<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">But Mark isn't living in a different world, he living in this one. Considering the number of Network Engineers that I have personally worked with and seen be sucked up into the Google/Facebook/Silicon Valley Motherships. It happens so often that you can no longer consider the two job markets completely distinct. What happens in the USA will affect the availability of local resources.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Honestly the only reason I haven't put my CV out into that market is that I have school age kids and run a business I enjoy.<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On 13 May 2016, at 1:22 PM, Skeeve Stevens <<a href="mailto:skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com" class="">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Mark,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You've mis-read. I didn't say I wanted anything. That wasn't a job advert. That was a list of areas in the industry that people are struggling with at the moment, not an all encompassing list of skills I was expecting in one job role.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"Average" is such a meaningless word and is useless in comparison between people. It is a purely statistical number that sadly people if they are getting less think they are 'below average' for an industry or location (Tassie is 12k below Sydney 'average' as an example) or above average or just average - which people don't like to think of themselves as.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You live in a different world Mark, I get it. You've made sweeping statements about 'average' which mean nothing. <a href="https://www.livingin-australia.com/salaries-australia/" class="">Industries</a> vary extremely and there are many many variables which including skills, experience, certification (if important), age (sometimes), creativity, common sense, complimentary soft-skills, etc etc etc. Average doesn't mean anything to me, because no one is average.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">With Work Visas, cloudification of human skills, off-shoring, locals better have a damn good reason for charging higher than your 'average' or what people are prepared to pay. Because the sad (to locals) fact is that 80% of IT job functions can be done from anywhere in the planet. You better make sure that the 20% that needs to be done locally is relevant and outstanding. There are a lot of immigrants in the country at the moment with master degrees, CCNP/IE level certs filling the cubicals of Telstra, NBN, Optus and every other large carrier out there... and who are way way more hungrier than your typical Australian.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am just being devils advocate here. You'r view is skewed into getting as much as you can for the skills you have - and I agree. But I also understand employers only being able to afford so much so they can competing.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The normal IT industry is not competing with Google, Amazon, etc. They will always take the cream top 1-2%. They can't take that many and it is seriously competitive. The rockstars will always be worth a LOT more money - like you. But there are only like a couple of hundred people at your level... that still leaves a lot of amazing talent available out there - the ones who haven't been stolen by the US that is.</div><div class="gmail_extra"><div class=""><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" class=""><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" class=""><br class="">...Skeeve</div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" class=""><div class=""><b style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri" class="">Skeeve Stevens - Founder & The Architect</b><span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px" class=""> - eintellego Networks Pty Ltd</span></div><div class=""><span style="font-size:13px;font-family:Calibri" class="">Email: </span><a href="mailto:skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com" style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px" target="_blank" class="">skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com</a><span style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px" class=""> ; Web: </span><a href="http://eintellegonetworks.com/" style="font-family:Calibri;font-size:13px" target="_blank" class="">eintellegonetworks.com</a></div><div class=""><div style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px;" class="">Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; S<a class="">kype: skeeve ; </a>LinkedIn: <a href="http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve" target="_blank" class="">/in/skeeve</a> ; Expert360: <a href="https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9" target="_blank" class="">Profile</a> ; Keybase: <a href="https://keybase.io/skeeve" target="_blank" class="">https://keybase.io/skeeve</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Mark Newton <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:newton@atdot.dotat.org" target="_blank" class="">newton@atdot.dotat.org</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="">On 13 May 2016, at 10:20, Skeeve Stevens <<a href="mailto:skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com" target="_blank" class="">skeeve+ausnog@eintellegonetworks.com</a>> wrote:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Mark,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If you think 100k is peanuts, you've been earning way too much for way too long and are far out of touch with reality.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Give it a rest, Skeeve.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">You've provided a list of skills you want, and a statement that says you have trouble filling your requirements at a $100k price point.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I don't need to hold any opinion about whether $100k is peanuts to observe that basic microeconomics says you're not paying enough.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The people you say you want exist. They probably aren't even bothering to talk to you because your price isn't worth the effort. If you were paying more, they might get out of bed to answer your phone calls, and you wouldn't believe they were rare.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">"Out of touch with reality."</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">Those who are employees are always going to talk up their wages as much as possible.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Most employees rarely talk about their wages AT ALL. Now who's out of touch?</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">The issue is not that it is too little for too much. The issue - and why I posted in the first place - is that the skill sets for a lot of the roles are just not there in desired combinations</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Have a good hard think about why you believe that statement is true.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">In about 2-3 years when there are experienced and self-taught people and Unis produce people with a bit of a clue and the baseline expectation is: Cisco + Juniper + Linux + Devops awareness/scripting skills, and cloud skills - those people will be worth about $60k-$75 on the low-end,</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">$60k-$75k is a realistic expectation for a first year CS graduate.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It's below average wages in Australia right now (average individual full time adult pre-tax earnings in Australia is currently at $77,000 -- that's an economy-wide figure, includes brain surgeons on the North Shore and McDonalds burger flippers in Hobart)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">At the rates you believe you should be paying for these specialist, rare, expert combination of skills, why do you think they're so hard to find?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">You can disagree with those approximate figures - but few employers (who actually have to pay the money) will disagree.</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>You only need a handful of employers who're slurping up the labor supply by paying market rates to make the ones paying below market rates believe there's a skills shortage.</div><div class=""> <br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">I'm not trying to talk anyones worth down</div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>That's actually the <i class=""><b class="">precise exact</b></i> thing you are doing.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">IT engineering skills are in high demand, and are absolutely crucial for the current health of virtually every sector of Australia's economy, and even more crucial in future. Why shouldn't people with expertise expect to be well compensated? </div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> - mark</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></font></span></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div>
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