<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Successful lobbying uses the politicians' ideology to create reasons to do what the lobbyist is in favor of.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">For example, there are plenty of "classic liberal" reasons, which plenty of Liberal MPs will sympathize with, to do things that are in the best interests of the Internet industry and Internet users.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">There are also plenty of "dry Liberal" small-government reasons supporting exactly the same outcomes.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">And there are plenty of "big society" reasons which will appeal to ALP MPs to do precisely the same things.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">All three sets of arguments can be made at the same time, with each one persuading a different subset of people about the defensiveness and rhetorical safety of making the same decisions that favor our aims.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">This industry has been culturally incapable of providing reasons to support its aims that are any more complicated or nuanced than, "It is correct." And even then, there is very little in the way of follow-up: the industry can't hold an argument for longer than three months, and has been singularly absent at promoting positions in the face of political opposition for ten years -- which is, in truth, actually required.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Zero MPs are even remotely interested in correctness. So arguments based on educating them about what the correct answer is will universally fail, no matter who is in power.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Everyone here should know this, because it's all any of you have ever known, because you've not had the nous to mount a sophisticated argument about anything, and have consequently always failed in the same way. </div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature"> - mark</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>-- <div>Tiny screen, imaginary keyboard.</div><div><br></div></div><div><br>On 29 Apr 2016, at 19:56, Peter Tiggerdine <<a href="mailto:ptiggerdine@gmail.com">ptiggerdine@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">This is probably drifting into the off-topic but ideology trumps money as does religion.<div><br></div><div>All the money in the world wouldn't persuade the government to make good decision because they believe that national security is more important and civil liberties and right to privacy. So irrespective of the education and lobbying you're going to struggle to change their belief.</div><div><br></div><div>The government knows that while it can blindside the public though miss-education, they can do anything. Hence my original point.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes you are right on the mark *pun intended* that the carriers and associated organisations need to apply more pressure but going up against ideology is a waste of time.</div><div><br></div><div> </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr">Regards,<div><br></div><div>Peter Tiggerdine</div><div><br></div><div>GPG Fingerprint: 2A3F EA19 F6C2 93C1 411D 5AB2 D5A8 E8A8 0E74 6127</div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Mark Newton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:newton@atdot.dotat.org" target="_blank">newton@atdot.dotat.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class="">On Apr 29, 2016, at 1:47 PM, Peter Tiggerdine <<a href="mailto:ptiggerdine@gmail.com">ptiggerdine@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> education is the key. The problem with the government is that it doesn't want to be educated because of ideology.<br>
><br>
> Uneducatable (probably made up word, but you get the drift) people are the true definition of stupid. And lets face it government is where all these types seem to congregate the most.<br>
<br>
</span>Money wins against education hands-down.<br>
<br>
The belief that politicians would do the right thing, if only they knew enough about the subject matter to make well-reasoned decisions, is absurd, completely unsupported by empirical evidence.<br>
<br>
There are very well-organized and well-funded organizations lobbying in favor of control of the internet. The Internet community fails time and time again because it has not learned enough lessons from previous defeats to become well-organized and well-funded enough to make its counter-case effectively.<br>
<br>
The government knows it can marginalize and destroy internet industry participants with no blowback whatsoever. As long as that remains true, ISPs and users will continue to be outmaneuvered.<br>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
- mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>