<div dir="ltr">Wow, <div><br></div><div>I think you are missing my point here Geordie, privacy is a bloody good thing, I'm a privacy nut, and all the reasons you have listed here are really good cases for it, but tell me how advising people to use a VPN really helps <span style="font-size:12.8px">the people you have listed, rather than just giving them a false sense of security/privacy?</span><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">My use of the term 'belies' may be an error on my part, my bad - I am not seeking to discredit them, and started the sentence with 'I'm not judging them' to avoid that perception - what I was trying to convey is that if you are relying on a vpn for your 'privacy', then there is a good chance that the problem you are trying to solve is avoiding copyright infringement notices, because I think that's what they are best at doing, along with defeating Geoblocking. Bundling this problem in with people with more legitimate privacy concerns weakens their argument. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">I'm seeking to disarm the people who would make the argument I think you mistakenly thought I was making - ie the "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about" crowd - This could not be further from the truth.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">"</span><span style="font-size:12.8px">Australian bureaucrats are creepy and want to know everything about Australian Internet users"</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Hyperbole and grandiosity, but If this is really was your belief, then you should know they already have access to all of your info and your VPN is of limited use (Can you really trust your vpn provider if you are that paranoid?) (Hint: No - See Edward Snowden).<br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Also, to address the other comment, if you Google my fake email address you will find me pretty quickly, I use a personal email on list because I have worked for 5 different companies in the 10 years or so I have been on this list, and I got sick of changing it and polluting the list with automated corp email disclaimers - apologies for the confusion this caused.</span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px">Eric 'real person' Pinkerton</span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><a href="mailto:misterpink@gmail.com" target="_blank">misterpink@gmail.com</a></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 13 October 2015 at 11:18, Geordie Guy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:elomis@gmail.com" target="_blank">elomis@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_extra">Hi Eric,</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 10:00 AM, Mister Pink <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:misterpink@gmail.com" target="_blank">misterpink@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>'privacy advocate' is a lofty term for people who just want to torrent without wanting Dallas Buyers Club letters. <br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Correct. And people who want to avoid being injured or killed by a violent ex-partner, people who want to avoid being the victim of burglary, people who want to communicate with their friends and family including in an intimate capacity without third parties reading it, people who work for or own businesses that have confidentiality requirements, people with medical conditions they don't want publicized including embarrassing ones, people... well, you get the idea.</div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div><br></div>I'm not judging those people, but using a VPN in reaction to the data retention laws for the most part belies the problem they are trying to solve, and calling that 'Privacy' pollutes the term for people with more legitimate causes. </div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I'm not sure how to react to that, I assume you're using "belies" to mean discredit so to that I'd say</div><div><br></div><div>1) Yeah, that's the point</div><div>2) They don't solve a problem other than the one that Australian bureaucrats are creepy and want to know everything about Australian Internet users</div><div>3) Privacy is the principle that you have control over who knows what about you, the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the cause is entirely besides the point</div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>In effect (unless you roll your own) it means you trust a cheap vpn provider in a random country more than your own Gov't?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I trust a Russian teenager with a rack of Raspberry Pi connected to a $30 Jaycar solar charger more than I trust my government but YMMV obviously.</div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div> and if your VPN provider of choice isn't already selling your data to data brokers, they probably will be soon.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>[Citation Needed]</div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><br></div><div>If you absolutely want privacy on the internet, then you need anonymity, and for that I would recommend TOR rather than a vpn, or if you are really paranoid, TOR over a VPN from Mcdonalds Wifi with a Linux ISO on a thumbdrive from a disposable laptop, but then you're not downloading pirate movies.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>The answer will vary for each person depending on their needs. The large swathe of use cases you left out of your first para where you scoffed at all of this as a copyright infringement issue will all each have a different mix of onion routing, vpn usage, non-Australian service selection, dedicated private messaging apps etc. to mitigate the privacy infringement.</div><span class=""><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><br></div><div>Lets agree on this list to call a spade a spade, and not concede moral high ground to people who may not deserve it...</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Pass. But thanks. I'll remain on the side of the constitutional courts of the Czech Republic, Germany, Romania and Slovakia each of whom found that government surveillance of innocent people is not "moral".</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>G</div></font></span><div><div class="h5"><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div> </div></div></div><div><div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 13 October 2015 at 09:22, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com" target="_blank">Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Most of my friends, mainly IT literate are thinking vpn. Not a good sampling for the general public.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">But you have pollie’s pushing VPN’s and legal (!) avoidance<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><a href="http://scott-ludlam.greensmps.org.au/campaigns/stopdataretention#protect" target="_blank">http://scott-ludlam.greensmps.org.au/campaigns/stopdataretention#protect</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">and I believe its quiet easy to setup routers now a days with VPN’s<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The above link even suggests VPN’s for phone. Hadn’t thought of that one!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I’m think it’s going to be more than a fringe, maybe not an avalanche, but it would be interesting to track…<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">A
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="1505e9101666d11b_1505e486a7711cf8_1505e25fd6640348__MailEndCompose"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Geordie Guy [mailto:<a href="mailto:elomis@gmail.com" target="_blank">elomis@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 12 October 2015 4:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Damian Guppy <<a href="mailto:the.damo@gmail.com" target="_blank">the.damo@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Alex Samad - Yieldbroker <<a href="mailto:Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com" target="_blank">Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com</a>>; <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Data retention<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Damian Guppy <<a href="mailto:the.damo@gmail.com" target="_blank">the.damo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">What's your end goal? If it is to avoid the new datarention going into effect tomorrow, using a VPN isnt going to change what is being recorded on you. Dataretention is capturing Email headers on ISP (australian) email addresses, which
a VPN wont change, and the IP assigned to your session when you connect (either via ADSL, NBN, 3/4G etc), which again, a VPN wont change. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Few people are <i>just</i> using a VPN to avoid retention most are ensuring they don't use ISP email, and deploy other encryption heavily. Done right (and it's not that difficult), the only audit trail you leave is quite boring - all data
is from the same IP, to the same IP, and encrypted.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">VPN also introduces a lot of other issues such as latency and GEOIP breakages that it reduces the end user experience of the internet, so for most people, pumping all their data through an international VPN is going to make using the internet
unjoyful.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">How are GEOIP breakages a bad thing? Most people using VPNs before data retention were doing it
<i>explicitly to break</i> IP geolocation. Latency is similarly not a drama, particularly in circumstances where people are using carriers that pick losers on a TCP port by TCP port basis and actually get a net experience improvement.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The VPN from my phone transparently routes all my traffic via New Zealand. I don't notice any difference.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Then there is the whole issue of complication, what % of australian users have the technical ability to set up a VPN?
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The one I use on my phone processed a payment, took me to the App Store to download their client, I picked a country from a list of flags. The experience was infinitely easier most other tasks I've performed this week. This is progressing
in the same vein as everything else - there's money to be made if you present a compelling use case (would you like Netflix to think you're American?) and price it correctly (well Netflix will think you're American if you give me $3.95 a month and click here).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I would put that in the single digit percentage, and then what % of thoes will actually set up a VPN? Again I would guess maybe 10% if you're lucky? So worst case maybe a 0.5% increase in international traffic? That's not even factoring
in how much was international traffic to begin with which wouldnt increase international usage anyway, just change how its coming in. <u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The idea that this is hampered by difficulty and poor experience is wrong. It hasn't always been wrong, setting up a VPN was a new and hard thing for people not all that long ago, but the Internet has done what the Internet does and people
have made it easy to set up with easy payment options.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">--Damian<u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 7:14 AM, Alex Samad - Yieldbroker <<a href="mailto:Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com" target="_blank">Alex.Samad@yieldbroker.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Hi<br>
<br>
I see a lot of privacy advocacy groups recommending using VPN out of australia. I wonder where can we see easily the change to from local traffic to international traffic.<br>
<br>
So I have friends who are thinking of just setting up a vpn to take all their traffic overseas including access to local sites, like smh commbank etc etc.<br>
<br>
My presumption we double up on Intl traffic outbound and then inbound !<br>
<br>
A<br>
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