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The fact that this discussion has gone on so long and with so many differing opinions from quite obviously intelligent and articulate professionals. What does that tell you?<BR>
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Paul and I are close to finishing a first Q&A which will be a live doc, for the ISP SIG and Comms Alliance. We'll release a draft soon to the ISP Sig list.<BR>
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Cheers<BR>
g.<BR>
(Recovering Lawyer) <BR>
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On Wed, 2015-06-17 at 01:35 +1000, Paul Brooks wrote:
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On 16/06/2015 11:25 PM, Paul Wilkins wrote:<BR>
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Paul,<BR>
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I don't think we do disagree. There ought to be a demarc which says this business is in or outside the scope of the Act.<BR>
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That demarc is where you provide, as a service, communications via electromagnetic radiation, ie. layer 2/3 services, ie. someone pays you to put an IP on their CE. Layer 1 services are not covered, as you point out. Or have I overlooked something you see in contention?<BR>
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I think you might have, and it gets a bit hairy.<BR>
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The type of service is important. The type of business is very important.<BR>
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Note well that the definition of 'carry' is 'includes transmit, <B>switch</B> and receive'<BR>
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If you are a licensed carrier, a carriage service provider, or an ISP, you are in-scope IF you provide a relevant service. If you provide a carriage service - or you resell someone else's carriage service - you are automatically a carriage service provider - so focus on the services.<BR>
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The words defining a relevant service are 'it is a service for carrying communications, <B>or enabling communications to be carried</B>, by means of guided or unguided electromagnetic energy or both'. The 'or enabling communications to be carried' are important, because <B>they are different from the definition of 'carriage service' in the Telco Act</B>. <B>And 'carry' includes 'switch'</B>.<BR>
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Layer 1 services (and Layer 0 services - dark fibre) are definitely covered and in-scope - they are services for carrying communications. The metadata might be fairly slim and static, but the obligation is still there.<BR>
Transmission services, including DSL, leased-line etc, Layer 2 services, Layer 3 services, non-IP services like MPLS, IPX, X.25, ATM, Frame Relay etc are all in-scope as they are services for carrying communications, even though they don't have anything to do with IP addressing. It has nothing at all to do with IP addressing or IP capability.<BR>
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Fairly straight-forward so far.<BR>
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VoIP calls are 'communications'. Emails are 'communications'. A VoIP server or an email server still 'enables communications to be carried by means....' in and out on the links to/from the servers, even if the operator of the servers doesn't operate the links. So these services appear to be in-scope as services too.<BR>
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HOWEVER - the definition of 'carriage service' in the Telco Act only says 'service for carrying communications by means of guided...etc' and doesn't include the 'or enable communications to be carried' bit. Also, the Telco Act has a definition of 'electronic messaging service provider' which is clearly intended to be something different from a carriage service provider, and captures a pure email processing entity.<BR>
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So, if you provide an email service ONLY, it would be in-scope - if you were a licensed carrier, a CSP using the definition of the Telco Act, or an ISP. If you aren't one of those three, then you may well be OK for now - until you are captured at a later time by 187A(3)(b)(iii) 'of a kind for which a declaration under subsection (3A) is in force' when they realise the loophole and the Minister declares its to be a relevant service despite all this.<BR>
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OK, reading back through all that - its complicated, I am not a lawyer either, and while I like to think I'm relatively on top of all this, this is not expert opinion and maybe you really should get a real legal expert opinion from someone with sufficient insurance that if it turns out they interpret it differently from me or the AGD, their insurance will cover your costs of complying even if your real legal expert opinion also thought you didn't.<BR>
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Paul.<BR>
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(I am not a lawyer, this is not expert opinion)<BR>
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Paul Wilkins<BR>
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On 16 June 2015 at 22:13, Paul Brooks <<A HREF="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</A>> wrote:
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On 16/06/2015 3:30 PM, Mike Everest wrote:<BR>
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Hi Paul, all,<BR>
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Per my understanding (having read the relevant sections of the Retention Act and the Telecommunications Act (the definitions are somewhat recursive, but it eventually comes down to whether you provide a service for carrying communications via electromagnetic waves - whether or not you have a carrier license).<BR>
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That’s essentially the definition of a carrier, and in Australia, if you are a carrier then you need to be a licensed one – so, moot point maybe ;-)<BR>
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NO NO NO! To both of you!<BR>
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Being a carrier has NOTHING to do with providing IP addresses, or services.<BR>
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A carrier license is a license to dig holes. Its a civil construction permit, to build and/or own the underlying cables or radio links. Nothing more.<BR>
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If you *operate* the cables, or services provided over the cables (yours or cables you lease from someone else) then you are *also* a CSP - Carriage Service Provider.<BR>
You don't need a carrier license to own buildings, you don't need one to own the equipment that lights up the cables, you don't need one to provide services, you don't need one to lease a connection from someone else. You only need a carrier license if you own the underlying cable/radio link as an asset (and its more than 600 metres, or crossing a property boundary), or you want to build a new one.<BR>
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To the point - being a licensed carrier has NOTHING to do with data retention. A licensed carrier, that doesn't provide services, has nothing to retain.<BR>
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<FONT COLOR="#888888">Paul.</FONT><BR>
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