<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Mark,<br></div>The relevant section is 187A(3):<br><br><div style="margin-left:40px"><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace">(3) This Part applies to a service if:<br>(a) it is a service for carrying communications, or enabling<br>communications to be carried, by means of guided or<br>unguided electromagnetic energy or both; and<br>(b) it is a service:<br>(i) operated by a carrier; or<br>(ii) operated by an internet service provider (within the<br>meaning of Schedule 5 to the Broadcasting Services Act<br>1992); or<br>(iii) of a kind for which a declaration under subsection (3A)<br>is in force; and<br>(c) the person operating the service owns or operates, in<br>Australia, infrastructure that enables the provision of any of<br>its relevant services;</span><br></div><br></div>Which means data link and network services. Which for IP means you put an IP on the customer CE, or PSTN, you provide a number and send dial tone.<br><br></div>(I am not a lawyer, this is not expert opinion)<br><br></div>Paul Wilkins<br><div><div><br><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 17 June 2015 at 00:21, Mark Newton <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:newton@atdot.dotat.org" target="_blank">newton@atdot.dotat.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div>The Act doesn't care about IP, nor does it pay the slightest bit of attention to protocol layers. It doesn't even care whether you provide Internet access: you could be delivering IPX WAN or SNA or Banyan Vines or a remote ISDN PABX for all AGD cares.</div><div><br></div><div>The Act already has a clear "demarc", in Section 4, which defines Carriage Service Provider.</div><div><br></div><div>Are you getting legal advice in parallel with trying to speculate about this on ausnog?</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div> - mark<br><br><div><br></div></div></font></span><div><div class="h5"><div>On 16 Jun 2015, at 11:25 pm, Paul Wilkins <<a href="mailto:paulwilkins369@gmail.com" target="_blank">paulwilkins369@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Paul,<br></div>I don't think we do disagree. There ought to be a demarc which says this business is in or outside the scope of the Act.<br><br></div>That demarc is where you provide, as a service, communications via electromagnetic radiation, ie. layer 2/3 services, ie. someone pays you to put an IP on their CE. Layer 1 services are not covered, as you point out. Or have I overlooked something you see in contention?<br><br></div><div>(I am not a lawyer, this is not expert opinion)<br></div><div><br></div>Paul Wilkins<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 16 June 2015 at 22:13, Paul Brooks <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au" target="_blank">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div><div>
<div>On 16/06/2015 3:30 PM, Mike Everest
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Hi
Paul, all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:5.25pt">Per
my understanding (having read the relevant sections
of the Retention Act and the Telecommunications Act
(the definitions are somewhat recursive, but it
eventually comes down to whether you provide a
service for carrying communications via
electromagnetic waves - whether or not you have a
carrier license).<span style="color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">That’s
essentially the definition of a carrier, and in
Australia, if you are a carrier then you need to
be a licensed one – so, moot point maybe ;-)</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div></div>
NO NO NO! To both of you!<br>
<br>
Being a carrier has NOTHING to do with providing IP addresses, or
services.<br>
<br>
A carrier license is a license to dig holes. Its a civil
construction permit, to build and/or own the underlying cables or
radio links. Nothing more.<br>
<br>
If you *operate* the cables, or services provided over the cables
(yours or cables you lease from someone else) then you are *also* a
CSP - Carriage Service Provider.<br>
You don't need a carrier license to own buildings, you don't need
one to own the equipment that lights up the cables, you don't need
one to provide services, you don't need one to lease a connection
from someone else. You only need a carrier license if you own the
underlying cable/radio link as an asset (and its more than 600
metres, or crossing a property boundary), or you want to build a new
one.<br>
<br>
To the point - being a licensed carrier has NOTHING to do with data
retention. A licensed carrier, that doesn't provide services, has
nothing to retain.<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Paul.<br>
</font></span></div>
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