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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">FFS is it 2008 all over again? This
same sort of advice made the rounds in 2008, 2009, 2010....check
the archives.<br>
Still good advice - but clearly few bothered.<br>
The thread starting at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/2013-March/017219.html">http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/2013-March/017219.html</a>
has some sound advice.<br>
<br>
As to why CGNAT is not the solution - read
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/2010-October/008535.html">http://lists.ausnog.net/pipermail/ausnog/2010-October/008535.html</a>
thread through again. Doesn't matter how much you squeeze IPv4,
you won't connect to IPv6-only sites, and they'll not connect to
yours.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 27/03/2015 12:11 AM, Russell Langton wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAGq70SKfGm6e9ztr5MJd9GL+GQJD3ZCV2PwTAC0gOn7piSoRiA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi Chris,<br>
</div>
In my personal opinion....<br>
<br>
</div>
You make alot of good points about Ipv6,especially about the
backward compatibility but there is no much point talking
about it now - that bus has already passed.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Everyone's networks are different so we are all going to
have different way to approach Ipv6 - For some this will be
CGNAT, for some this will be native IPv6, some this will 6rd,
some this will be <span class="">464SLAT, and some will stick
their heads in the sand.</span><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>The main aim of everybody is happy 'paying' users with
happy eyeballs and growing customers.<br>
</div>
<div>I know my in-laws use Ipv6 on NBN without even knowing or
caring - They just care they can get to google/facebook which
are 100% Ipv6 traffic.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>The realistic options are Ipv6 deployment in some form or
another. That's it.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>This doesn't have to be a massive project with hundreds of
people done in 1 month - It's a process not a leap.<br>
</div>
<div>Ipv4 is not going to be turned off tomorrow as Noel
highlighted.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For starters, audit your devices - do they support Ipv6 now
or need an upgrade. Flag it for next software upgrade if
needed.<br>
</div>
<div>The next step - Speak to your upstream and get a Ipv6 bgp
peering happening.<br>
</div>
<div>Next speak to your provider to get an allocation, or speak
to apnic to get a ipv6 allocation.<br>
</div>
<div>Start working your way out from your edge/core devices to
enable Ipv6 and establish a deployment plan.<br>
</div>
<div>Mandate that any new service should be Ipv6 enabled where
possible as well to save going backwards.<br>
</div>
<div>At this point - you are well on the way to a Ipv6
deployment with minimal OPEX/CAPEX investment.<br>
</div>
<div>Trust me, Everyone is going to have problems with a ipv6
deployment with varying degrees of difficulty but that's what
vendor support is for and ausnog to see if anyone else has
found a way to get that square peg in that round hole ;)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Next, Look at getting <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://minopher.net.au">http://minopher.net.au</a>
enabled for Ipv6. ;)<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Ipv6 preparation and audit work will ensure that when
the time does come for Ipv6 only websites, consumers/companies
are not complaining - Why can't I access this porn
website/service, and they are not changing providers because
you can't fix it in a couple of days as your CGNAT solution
ran out of IPs need a total ipv6 deployment.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Also with NBN - It's the perfect business case opportunity
in a company to establish that any NBN connections should be
fully dual-stacked.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 11:13 PM, Chris
Hurley <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chris@minopher.net.au" target="_blank">chris@minopher.net.au</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12px;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div>
<div>
<div>I could be wrong (and I have been before ;-), but
the biggest mistake in IP6 was not making it
backward compatible with IP4. Hence the resistance
to take it up. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes there are some good technical agruements with
substance as to why we should make the quantum leap.
But they forget the human lag factor. I.e it's not
broken don't fix, It costs money, where's my return
etc. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That being said and the fact we have now
"exhausted" IP4 addresses, what are the realistic
options? Bare in mind consumers/companies only
really care about "Do I have internet access". They
neither know or care about the IP. They just want
their porn, don't laugh. Given the number of outside
hours clients trying to get support all to true.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Personally I thought the NBN was the perfect
vehicle to mandate IP6, but the powers that be said
you can run what ever you like eg AppleTalk for all
we care. Seriously you want 21st Century tech but
prepared to run old technology. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Mind you people have been talking about this
issue for many years.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Chris Hurley BE (Elec), MBA</div>
<div>Director</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>******************************************************</div>
<div> Minopher Pty Ltd Phone: 1300 730
531 </div>
<div> 15 Nevana Street Fax: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%2B61-3-9763%203309"
value="+61397633309" target="_blank">+61-3-9763
3309</a> </div>
<div> Scoresby, 3179
Victoria </div>
<div>
Australia </div>
<div>******************************************************</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div
style="font-family:Geneva;font-size:10pt;text-align:left;color:black;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium
none;BORDER-LEFT:medium
none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df
1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt"><span
style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> Michael
Biber <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mbiber@ipv6forum.com.au"
target="_blank">mbiber@ipv6forum.com.au</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Organization: </span>
IPv6 Forum Australia<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span> <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:mbiber@ipv6forum.com.au"
target="_blank">mbiber@ipv6forum.com.au</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span>
Thursday, 26 March 2015 1:53 PM<br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> "'Beeson,
Ayden'" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ABeeson@csu.edu.au" target="_blank">ABeeson@csu.edu.au</a>>,
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kris@cloudcentral.com.au"
target="_blank">kris@cloudcentral.com.au</a>>, "<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re:
[AusNOG] Data Retention and CGNAT - educational
exercise<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" lang="EN-AU">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Here’s
a list of IPv6 Only web sites.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ipv6.cybernode.com/list-of-ipv6-only-sites"
target="_blank">http://ipv6.cybernode.com/list-of-ipv6-only-sites</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">It’s
only reachable via IPv6 though 8^)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I
was told there are Indian government web sites
and gaming servers that are only reachable via
v6 but I can’t verify that. Also quite a few
dark sites I imagine.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Most
everything is dual stacked.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Mike
Biber</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">IPv6now</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> AusNOG [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Beeson, Ayden<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 26 March 2015 9:58
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:%27kris@cloudcentral.com.au"
target="_blank">'kris@cloudcentral.com.au</a>';
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:%27ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">'ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a>'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Data
Retention and CGNAT - educational exercise</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">(Disclaimer:
Apologies, I’m going to be “that guy” and
argue against that line. Don’t take this email
as a flame, it’s more about correcting a
misconception that seems to be quite prevalent
and I understand there are a lot of factors
that go into deploying / not deploying IPv6
now that I will not cover.)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">That
statement is part of the problem IMHO and I’ve
seen it multiple times on this list and
elsewhere.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">IPv6
won’t go anywhere until the majority get it
turned on. It has no direct technical relation
to IPv4 other than being the replacement for
it. Blaming a lack of IPv6 deployment
progress on “IPv4 not being broken yet” is
self-defeating, it’s the same as saying “my
water pipes still work even though they have a
few big cracks leaking, why should the council
replace them until the water completely stops
flowing?” or “nobody else bothers to put
rubbish in a bin, so I won’t either, plus I
invented this new thing to add onto my shoes
to make me higher to keep out of all the
litter on the ground, everybody else needs to
buy some now too”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Unfortunately
CGNAT is now a requirement for a lot of
companies, due in large part to a lack of
progress on IPv6, but it doesn’t go both ways.
But as has been said before, most users don’t
understand or care how their internet
connection works, just that it does, so the
onus is on the ISP’s etc. to push these things
along for the benefit of everybody. Again as
has been said, there is very little commercial
incentive to do this, but it’s really going to
be minimal capex to implement with very little
additional opex spending so it shouldn’t be as
big a cost issue as it may seem, at least for
basic connectivity for servers etc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Obviously
we can’t argue “don’t do CGNAT” now, we are
well past that, but I would say that anybody
looking at or doing CGNAT should at least have
an IPv6 deployment plan they are actively
progressing, even if it’s slowly.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The
problem with IPv4 is that we can continue to
do CGNAT theoretically indefinitely, though
the logging required will continue to increase
and the port ranges that are allowed for per
user will continue to shrink until it becomes
practically untenable. The issue is in the
meantime we are stifling innovation and
strangling available uses for the internet. In
the next few years we will see a continued
explosion of devices that will need IPv6 to be
able to truly be used to their full potential,
but a lot of those will just continue to not
work or be underutilised until the network
under them has the capacity to handle them
gracefully.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On
the topic of IPv6 only hosts, I have heard
there are ISP’s in China and Europe that are
doing this but I have nothing concrete,
anybody know if that’s fact or not / have a
link? I suspect given I can’t find any info at
all it’s not real, but I’d be interested to
know…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">TL;DR
– IPv6 only works when everybody does IPv6, do
CGNAT if you have to, but make it clear to
your management (or to yourself) that’s it’s
not a long term strategy and make sure you
have some sort of IPv6 plan being worked on
for everybody’s sake.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Ayden
Beeson<i> </i></span><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"
lang="EN-US"> AusNOG [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kristoffer Sheather @
CloudCentral<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, 26 March 2015 8:50 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Data Retention
and CGNAT - educational exercise</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">IPv6
won't go anywhere until IPv4 doesn't work
anymore. That day is not today despite the
numerous arguments and flames I expect to
receive subsequent to this message.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Regards,<br>
Kristoffer Sheather</span><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></span></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">: "Scott Weeks"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:surfer@mauigateway.com"
target="_blank">surfer@mauigateway.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent</b>: Thursday, March 26, 2015 8:42
AM<br>
<b>To</b>: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject</b>: Re: [AusNOG] Data Retention
and CGNAT - educational exercise</span><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
> Reduce the amount of data to zero - put
this energy into<br>
> deploying IPv6 instead of CG-NAT. You
know you should.<br>
> You know you can.<br>
<br>
<br>
:: Oh boy, I am so sick of people harping on
like this. I<br>
:: challenge you to run one single internet
customer IPv6<br>
:: only (no translations) and see how long
it lasts. Just<br>
<br>
<br>
Dual stack is not doable? I thought that's
what he meant<br>
by deploy IPv6. Maybe I need more beer?
Again? ;-)<br>
<br>
scott<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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Sturt University in Ontario</span></a> 860
Harrington Court, Burlington Ontario Canada
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