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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-AU link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>and ask the AGD to pay for your lawyers fees<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark ZZZ Smith<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 18 March 2015 2:45 PM<br><b>To:</b> James Hodgkinson; ausnog@lists.ausnog.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Warrant-less Info Requests / Cost Recovery<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>You forgot a step. 2, verify the requester has the right to ask for what they're asking for, to catch both errors and overreach.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>In fact, as you're unlikely to be a lawyer, it'd other be best to pass all the requests through a lawyer, or get a lawyer to define a strict set of common request definitions and who can ask for them, and then punt every non-matching request to your lawyer.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64778"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64777"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64776"><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> James Hodgkinson <<a href="mailto:yaleman@ricetek.net">yaleman@ricetek.net</a>><br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 18 March 2015, 15:24<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Warrant-less Info Requests / Cost Recovery</span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65162"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yiv6201497886><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65165"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65164"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65163"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>It WILL take much more than 60 seconds to:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><ul type=disc id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65167"><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65166"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif"'>verify the requestor’s identity,<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65168"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif"'>the parameters of the request,<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65169"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif"'>do the lookup,<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65170"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif"'>format it appropriately<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65171"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif"'>send it<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65172"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif"'>generate the bill<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;background:white' id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65173"><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif"'>manage payment receipt, when it inevitably goes wrong<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65174"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>… should I go on? <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65175"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>This doesn’t include the sunk costs of the infrastructure to host it on, and recovering that cost.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65176"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>Is there mention of penalties for when your $system goes bye bye (fire/flood/hacker/MTBF of hdd’s) and you can’t respond?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>James<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><div id="yiv6201497886bloop_customfont"><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id="yiv6201497886bloop_sign_1426652414744854016"><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div id=yiv6201497886yqtfd91825><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>On 18 March 2015 at 2:17:21 pm, Paul Brooks (<a href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au" target="_blank">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>) wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><div id=yiv6201497886yqtfd19986><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>They'll tell you you're dreaming.<br><br>counter-view...<br><br>Remembering that Telstra recently announced they'll charge $25 to process a simple request - the same amount they charge a LEO.<br><br>If you've built even a dodgy lookup system, should it really take more than 60 seconds to type in an IP address, a start date/time, an end date/time, and have the lookup system (that the Gov will help contribute to your reasonable costs to build *cough*) decrypt the RADIUS database for the time window, and extract a dump of records for that IP address?<br><br>If you think you'll be able to charge $500 - $1000, you'd better be prepared to explain to the CAC why you have to have a live person ruffling through a set of filing-cabinet of printed-out A4 sheets of paper with your records printed on them. They might be the Gov't, but even they know we have computers do do this sort of database lookup these days.<br><br><br>On 18/03/2015 1:27 PM, Andrew Yager wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>Hi Terry, <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>We are taking the view that this is an exercise that is equivalent of up to 2 hours technical services, and given the costs of verifying and ensuring compliance, our standard cost for a request will be $500 per request.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>For greater time periods (e.g. reporting on two years), our charging rate will extend to $15 000 for this service.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>More complicated requests (such as access logs from a web server) will also attract higher rates.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>I’d encourage everyone to ensure that their costs are reasonable relating to the amount of work - and the opportunity cost associated with complying with this daft legislation.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv6201497886apple-style-span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>--</span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span class=yiv6201497886apple-style-span><b><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Andrew Yager, Managing Director</span></b></span><span class=yiv6201497886apple-style-span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'> <i>(MACS Snr CP BCompSc MCP JNCIA-Junos)</i></span></span><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><br><span class=yiv6201497886apple-style-span>Real World Technology Solutions Pty Ltd - IT people you can trust</span><br><span class=yiv6201497886apple-style-span>ph: 1300 798 718 or (02) 9037 0500</span><br><span class=yiv6201497886apple-style-span>fax: (02) 9037 0591</span><br><span class=yiv6201497886apple-style-span><a href="http://www.rwts.com.au/" target="_blank">http://www.rwts.com.au/</a></span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>On 18 Mar 2015, at 1:11 pm, Terry Sweetser <<a href="mailto:terry+AusNOG@skymesh.net.au" target="_blank">terry+AusNOG@skymesh.net.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>Hello Noggers,<br><br>I'm wondering what policies and pricing any/all of your organisations have in place to "recover" costs when asked for (meta-)data about ip addresses, customers and so on?<br><br>Given the transition for 2-year retention and the expansion of the (meta-)dataset to be retained, what plans are in place to charge reasonable fees to state and federal LEOs for the data?<br><br>Is $200 a fair sum of money for an ip address match up?<br><br>Is $20,000 a fair sum of money for a dump of the (up to) 2 years of data for an ip address or customer?<br><br>--<br><a href="http://about.me/terry.sweetser" target="_blank">http://about.me/terry.sweetser</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>AusNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>AusNOG mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><br>_______________________________________________ <br>AusNOG mailing list <br><a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a> <br><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yqtfd40647><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>AusNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br><a href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Helvetica Neue","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>