<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:Helvetica Neue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;font-size:16px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6759">I don't know the answer about legal protection as I'm not a lawyer, although I do think it is a very good question to ask and know the answer to.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr">I think the fundamental issue is as you are now part of the evidence collecting chain, how much responsibility and legal obligation do you have?</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr">I've cared about this question for two reasons:</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr">(a) I don't want to be handing over details to LEAs and other parties who can request it that the LEA etc. aren't authorised to ask for</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr">(b) but more importantly, morally I wouldn't want to be responsible for somebody not going to jail who should, because I didn't collect or handle the evidence correctly, such that it became inadmissible to the court. </div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr">People from LEAs etc. who collect "real life" evidence would have had to been trained on ensuring evidence is admissible. If staff at ISPs are now going to going to be part of the evidence collecting chain, where is their training and legal protection if necessary?</div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6684" dir="ltr"><br></div> <div style="font-family: Helvetica Neue-Light, Helvetica Neue Light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6680"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6679"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6683"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Shaun Dwyer <shaun@dwyer.id.au><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> "ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" <ausnog@lists.ausnog.net> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 18 March 2015, 16:57<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [AusNOG] Warrant-less Info Requests / Cost Recovery<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6678"><br><div id="yiv3984291895"><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6682"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_6681">What legal culpability would there be for an operator who was to comply (in error) with a request for information that was later found to be illegal or over-reaching? Some of the requests can be fairly intimidating in their presentation, and it may not be possible for the smaller operators to afford to lawyer up every time a request comes in.</div><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10339"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10340">Are we afforded any legal protection in this circumstance?</div><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10341"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10342"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10343">Cheers!<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10346">
<div class="yiv3984291895" style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10345"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10344">Shaun</div><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10378"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10381"><blockquote class="yiv3984291895" type="cite" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10380"><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yiv3984291895yqt1110656480" id="yiv3984291895yqt96678"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1426720345364_10379">On 18 Mar 2015, at 12:44 pm, Mark ZZZ Smith <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895" ymailto="mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au">markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au</a>> wrote:</div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);font-family:'Helvetica Neue-Light', 'Helvetica Neue Light', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div class="yiv3984291895" dir="ltr" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><span class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64782">You forgot a step. 2, verify the requester has the right to ask for what they're asking for, to catch both errors and overreach.</span></div><div class="yiv3984291895" dir="ltr" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><span class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></span></div><div class="yiv3984291895" dir="ltr" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><span class="yiv3984291895">In fact, as you're unlikely to be a lawyer, it'd other be best to pass all the requests through a lawyer, or get a lawyer to define a strict set of common request definitions and who can ask for them, and then punt every non-matching request to your lawyer.</span></div><div class="yiv3984291895" dir="ltr" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><span class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></span></div><div class="yiv3984291895" dir="ltr" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64775"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64778" style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue-Light', 'Helvetica Neue Light', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64777" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div class="yiv3984291895" dir="ltr" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64776"><hr class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64813" size="1"><font class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_64779" size="2" face="Arial"><b class="yiv3984291895"><span class="yiv3984291895" style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b><span class="yiv3984291895Apple-converted-space"> </span>James Hodgkinson <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895" ymailto="mailto:yaleman@ricetek.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:yaleman@ricetek.net">yaleman@ricetek.net</a>><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><b class="yiv3984291895"><span class="yiv3984291895" style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b><span class="yiv3984291895Apple-converted-space"> </span><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895" ymailto="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><span class="yiv3984291895Apple-converted-space"> </span><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><b class="yiv3984291895"><span class="yiv3984291895" style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b><span class="yiv3984291895Apple-converted-space"> </span>Wednesday, 18 March 2015, 15:24<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><b class="yiv3984291895"><span class="yiv3984291895" style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b><span class="yiv3984291895Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [AusNOG] Warrant-less Info Requests / Cost Recovery<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></font></div><div class="yiv3984291895y_msg_container" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65162"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65165"><div class="yiv3984291895bloop_markdown" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65164"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65163">It WILL take much more than 60 seconds to:</div><ul class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65167" style="margin:15px 0px;"><li class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65166" style="margin:15px 0px;">verify the requestor’s identity,</li><li class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65168" style="margin:15px 0px;">the parameters of the request,</li><li class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65169" style="margin:15px 0px;">do the lookup,</li><li class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65170" style="margin:15px 0px;">format it appropriately</li><li class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65171" style="margin:15px 0px;">send it</li><li class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65172" style="margin:15px 0px;">generate the bill</li><li class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65173" style="margin:15px 0px;">manage payment receipt, when it inevitably goes wrong</li></ul><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65174">… should I go on?<span class="yiv3984291895Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65175">This doesn’t include the sunk costs of the infrastructure to host it on, and recovering that cost.</div><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895yui_3_16_0_1_1426643986145_65176">Is there mention of penalties for when your $system goes bye bye (fire/flood/hacker/MTBF of hdd’s) and you can’t respond?</div><div class="yiv3984291895">James</div><div class="yiv3984291895"></div></div><div class="yiv3984291895bloop_original_html"><div class="yiv3984291895" id="yiv3984291895bloop_customfont" style="font-family:'Source Code Pro', Arial;font-size:12px;margin:0px;"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895bloop_sign" id="yiv3984291895bloop_sign_1426652414744854016"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="font-family:helvetica, arial;font-size:13px;"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895yqt0694757884" id="yiv3984291895yqtfd91825"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="">On 18 March 2015 at 2:17:21 pm, Paul Brooks (<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895" ymailto="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au" style="color:rgb(65, 131, 196);background-color:inherit;text-decoration:none;">pbrooks-ausnog@layer10.com.au</a>) wrote:</div><blockquote class="yiv3984291895clean_bq" type="cite" style="margin:15px 0px;"><span class="yiv3984291895"></span><div class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895"></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div class="yiv3984291895yqt0694757884" id="yiv3984291895yqtfd19986"><div class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895moz-cite-prefix">They'll tell you you're dreaming.<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">counter-view...<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">Remembering that Telstra recently announced they'll charge $25 to process a simple request - the same amount they charge a LEO.<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">If you've built even a dodgy lookup system, should it really take more than 60 seconds to type in an IP address, a start date/time, an end date/time, and have the lookup system (that the Gov will help contribute to your reasonable costs to build *cough*) decrypt the RADIUS database for the time window, and extract a dump of records for that IP address?<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">If you think you'll be able to charge $500 - $1000, you'd better be prepared to explain to the CAC why you have to have a live person ruffling through a set of filing-cabinet of printed-out A4 sheets of paper with your records printed on them. They might be the Gov't, but even they know we have computers do do this sort of database lookup these days.<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">On 18/03/2015 1:27 PM, Andrew Yager wrote:<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><blockquote class="yiv3984291895" type="cite" style="margin:15px 0px;">Hi Terry,<div class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895">We are taking the view that this is an exercise that is equivalent of up to 2 hours technical services, and given the costs of verifying and ensuring compliance, our standard cost for a request will be $500 per request.</div><div class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895">For greater time periods (e.g. reporting on two years), our charging rate will extend to $15 000 for this service.</div><div class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895">More complicated requests (such as access logs from a web server) will also attract higher rates.</div><div class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895">I’d encourage everyone to ensure that their costs are reasonable relating to the amount of work - and the opportunity cost associated with complying with this daft legislation.</div><div class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><div class="yiv3984291895">Andrew</div><div class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895" style="word-wrap:break-word;"><div class="yiv3984291895"><span class="yiv3984291895Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px;">--</span></div><div class="yiv3984291895"><span class="yiv3984291895Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px;"><b class="yiv3984291895">Andrew Yager, Managing Director</b> <i class="yiv3984291895">(MACS Snr CP BCompSc MCP JNCIA-Junos)</i><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">Real World Technology Solutions Pty Ltd - IT people you can trust<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">ph: 1300 798 718 or (02) 9037 0500<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">fax: (02) 9037 0591<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895" target="_blank" href="http://www.rwts.com.au/" style="color:rgb(65, 131, 196);background-color:inherit;text-decoration:none;">http://www.rwts.com.au/</a></span></div><div class="yiv3984291895"><span class="yiv3984291895Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:separate;font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;orphans:2;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;widows:2;word-spacing:0px;border-spacing:0px;"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></span></div></div></div></div></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><div class="yiv3984291895"><blockquote class="yiv3984291895" type="cite" style="margin:15px 0px;"><div class="yiv3984291895">On 18 Mar 2015, at 1:11 pm, Terry Sweetser <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895" ymailto="mailto:terry+AusNOG@skymesh.net.au" target="_blank" href="mailto:terry+AusNOG@skymesh.net.au" style="color:rgb(65, 131, 196);background-color:inherit;text-decoration:none;">terry+AusNOG@skymesh.net.au</a>> wrote:</div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="yiv3984291895">Hello Noggers,<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">I'm wondering what policies and pricing any/all of your organisations have in place to "recover" costs when asked for (meta-)data about ip addresses, customers and so on?<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">Given the transition for 2-year retention and the expansion of the (meta-)dataset to be retained, what plans are in place to charge reasonable fees to state and federal LEOs for the data?<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">Is $200 a fair sum of money for an ip address match up?<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">Is $20,000 a fair sum of money for a dump of the (up to) 2 years of data for an ip address or customer?<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">--<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895" target="_blank" href="http://about.me/terry.sweetser" style="color:rgb(65, 131, 196);background-color:inherit;text-decoration:none;">http://about.me/terry.sweetser</a><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">_______________________________________________<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895">AusNOG mailing list<br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895moz-txt-link-abbreviated" ymailto="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net" style="color:rgb(65, 131, 196);background-color:inherit;text-decoration:none;">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv3984291895moz-txt-link-freetext" target="_blank" href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog" style="color:rgb(65, 131, 196);background-color:inherit;text-decoration:none;">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div></blockquote></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"></div><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><fieldset class="yiv3984291895mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br clear="none" class="yiv3984291895"><pre class="yiv3984291895" style="margin:15px 0px;font-family:Menlo, Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Courier, monospace;font-size:10pt;background-color:rgb(248, 248, 248);color:inherit;border:1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);overflow:auto;padding:4px 8px;word-wrap:normal;">_______________________________________________
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