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    As a 'youth' (under 30) who has been employed solidly for many
    years, I think salary not the right focus.<br>
    <br>
    The problem is the 'inexperience' rather than the amount it costs.<br>
    If you are going for inexperienced people then you are just looking
    for bodies.<br>
    Would 10 inexperienced people at $2/hr really be better than one
    experienced person paid $20/hr?<br>
    <br>
    Would I employ a new uni graduate? Nope - not a chance no matter
    what the price was.<br>
    They don't have any of the skills I'd need them to have.<br>
    Universities aren't producing useful workers in IT.<br>
    <br>
    Job postings aren't supposed to be training opportunities, usually
    the person posting them actually has a job that needs to get done.<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/01/15 12:48, Giles Pollock wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAJQ50uqZ-n7Udo3KBZgW-VQ5YoQZKHcve8yZqyyDN_tV2dvSOA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div dir="ltr">As a previously unemployed youth, I completely
        agree! The issue is pretty multi-faceted though. On one side the
        employers have no incentive to employ and train up young
        inexperienced kids, while on another they continue to bleat
        about a skills shortage in IT in general, which can only be
        fixed via 457s.
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I've long argued that any IT skills shortage that exists
          can be rectified by providing the appropriate incentives to
          employ and more importantly, train existing locals. There are
          more than enough people out there, but they are not being
          considered for roles as they aren't able to tick the right
          boxes when the job is sourced to the market.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>In part I also blame what I call an 'instant gratification'
          attitude (on all sides). This can be seen in new young
          employees who expect to be CEO in a few years (and are already
          practicing the attitude), and in employers who expect 10 years
          experience on systems/software that has only existed for three
          years, and to get it with no need for training or remunerating
          appropriately.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>To those out there looking for jobs and getting no results,
          don't lose hope. There is a LOT of competition! I must have
          applied for hundreds of jobs, in many cases I was up against
          hundreds of other applicants. Stick with it and keep trying.
          Once you are in the door for an interview is your opportunity
          to really show what you can do and more importantly, what you
          can learn to do.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>To those out there looking for new employees, don't forget
          that it is not all about ticking boxes. You might have an
          applicant who hasn't had experience in product A, but has
          spent the last 10 years working on something in a different
          field which requires a very similar skillset. Most people can
          learn, so it shouldn't be all about what pieces of industry
          paper they claim to have. Figure out what kind of person you
          want for a role before deciding on what they should already
          claim to know, and more importantly make that clear in the
          advertisements you post on job boards!</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Paul
          Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au" target="_blank">paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-AU">
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
                    min wage here is $16.88 per hour (unless it's gone
                    up again in the meantime).</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
                    point we were talking about is youth unemployment
                    Giles</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Employers
                    are not provided with any incentives to employ,
                    uneducated inexperienced kids (even though they'd
                    like to) 18 year olds when the min wage is $40k per
                    annum (once you add super, leave loading, sick pay,
                    public holidays, 4 weeks holidays, paid carers leave
                    & other entitlements in)</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">something
                    needs to change & unfortunately the current Gov
                    doesn't have any appetite for IR reform.</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">-P</span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
                  1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
                        lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
                      lang="EN-US"> AusNOG [mailto:<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net"
                        target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
                      <b>On Behalf Of </b>Giles Pollock<br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 6 January 2015 11:19 AM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net"
                        target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a></span></p>
                  <div>
                    <div class="h5"><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Sysadmin
                      opportunities in Melbourne?</div>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div class="h5">
                    <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Minimum wage in Australia for
                        tech jobs? Last time I checked the contractor
                        rates for a service desk analyst were A$12.50
                        (if you were lucky)... Yes, you can get more
                        working on a checkout (assuming they have not
                        been replaced with self-checkouts)</p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at
                          12:10 PM, Paul Wallace <<a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au"
                            target="_blank">paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au</a>>
                          wrote:</p>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/07/13/australian-minimum-wage-myth"
                                  target="_blank">http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/07/13/australian-minimum-wage-myth</a></span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333"
                                lang="EN">The unseen consequences of
                                minimum wage laws are the millions of
                                poor, disadvantaged people who don't
                                have job opportunities. In the United
                                States, it hurts <a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2011/05/11/minimum_wages_discriminatory_effects"
                                  target="_blank"><span
                                    style="color:#183a52;text-decoration:none">poor
                                    people and inner-city minorities</span></a>.
                                In Australia, it hurts <a
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.smh.com.au/business/young-workers-hit-by-rising-unemployment-20120124-1qevx.html"
                                  target="_blank"><span
                                    style="color:#183a52;text-decoration:none">young
                                    workers</span></a>.</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span
                                style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Australia
                                is an example of how minimum wage helps
                                some groups, and hurts others. Even in a
                                good economy, the young, inexperienced
                                workers are left out. </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">-P</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid
                              #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
                                    lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
                                  lang="EN-US"> AusNOG [mailto:<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net"
                                    target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
                                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Howard<br>
                                  <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 6 January 2015
                                  11:02 AM<br>
                                  <b>To:</b> Paul Wallace<br>
                                  <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
                                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Sysadmin
                                  opportunities in Melbourne?</span></p>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jan 5,
                                    2015 at 4:55 PM, Paul Wallace <<a
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au"
                                      target="_blank">paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au</a>>
                                    wrote:</p>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <div>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Kids
                                              find it hard to get jobs
                                              today because Australia
                                              enforces a min wage of
                                              double that in the USA.</span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">it's
                                              as simple as that!</span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                          <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">And
                                              now Tony Abbott is too
                                              scared to look at HR
                                              reform for fear the Labour
                                              party will scream "Work
                                              Choices" again!</span></p>
                                        </div>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal">Minimum wage
                                        in San Francisco - US$11.05, or
                                        around A$13.63</p>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Minimum
                                          wage in Sydney - A$16.87 (for
                                          someone over 21).</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Higher? 
                                          Yes.  Double?  Not even close.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Yes, other
                                          parts of the US may be lower,
                                          but the movement is towards
                                          increasing to sane levels, not
                                          reducing them.</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">  Scott</p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                          AusNOG mailing list<br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net"
                            target="_blank">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog"
                            target="_blank">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a></p>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
AusNOG mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net">AusNOG@lists.ausnog.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog">http://lists.ausnog.net/mailman/listinfo/ausnog</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      Nick Stallman<br>
      Agentpoint Pty Ltd <br>
      The Real Estate Web Developers<br>
      Melbourne | Sydney | Miami<br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:nick@agentpoint.com">nick@agentpoint.com</a><br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.agentpoint.com.au">www.agentpoint.com.au</a> | <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.zooproperty.com">www.zooproperty.com</a> | <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.ginga.com.au">www.ginga.com.au</a> |
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.business2.com.au">www.business2.com.au</a><br>
      <br>
      Business2.com.au is a real estate agent information website that
      helps you understand Portals, Technology and comes with FREE tools
      to help your Agency become an online success!</div>
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