<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div><br></div>Hi all,<div><br></div><div>This thread has probably contributed all it can with any relevance to network operations. Let's move on.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div><div><br></div><div>David</div><div>...</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On 06/01/2015, at 11:58 AM, Nick Stallman <<a href="mailto:nick@agentpoint.com">nick@agentpoint.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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As a 'youth' (under 30) who has been employed solidly for many
years, I think salary not the right focus.<br>
<br>
The problem is the 'inexperience' rather than the amount it costs.<br>
If you are going for inexperienced people then you are just looking
for bodies.<br>
Would 10 inexperienced people at $2/hr really be better than one
experienced person paid $20/hr?<br>
<br>
Would I employ a new uni graduate? Nope - not a chance no matter
what the price was.<br>
They don't have any of the skills I'd need them to have.<br>
Universities aren't producing useful workers in IT.<br>
<br>
Job postings aren't supposed to be training opportunities, usually
the person posting them actually has a job that needs to get done.<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/01/15 12:48, Giles Pollock wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAJQ50uqZ-n7Udo3KBZgW-VQ5YoQZKHcve8yZqyyDN_tV2dvSOA@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">As a previously unemployed youth, I completely
agree! The issue is pretty multi-faceted though. On one side the
employers have no incentive to employ and train up young
inexperienced kids, while on another they continue to bleat
about a skills shortage in IT in general, which can only be
fixed via 457s.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I've long argued that any IT skills shortage that exists
can be rectified by providing the appropriate incentives to
employ and more importantly, train existing locals. There are
more than enough people out there, but they are not being
considered for roles as they aren't able to tick the right
boxes when the job is sourced to the market.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In part I also blame what I call an 'instant gratification'
attitude (on all sides). This can be seen in new young
employees who expect to be CEO in a few years (and are already
practicing the attitude), and in employers who expect 10 years
experience on systems/software that has only existed for three
years, and to get it with no need for training or remunerating
appropriately.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To those out there looking for jobs and getting no results,
don't lose hope. There is a LOT of competition! I must have
applied for hundreds of jobs, in many cases I was up against
hundreds of other applicants. Stick with it and keep trying.
Once you are in the door for an interview is your opportunity
to really show what you can do and more importantly, what you
can learn to do.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To those out there looking for new employees, don't forget
that it is not all about ticking boxes. You might have an
applicant who hasn't had experience in product A, but has
spent the last 10 years working on something in a different
field which requires a very similar skillset. Most people can
learn, so it shouldn't be all about what pieces of industry
paper they claim to have. Figure out what kind of person you
want for a role before deciding on what they should already
claim to know, and more importantly make that clear in the
advertisements you post on job boards!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Paul
Wallace <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au" target="_blank">paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-AU">
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
min wage here is $16.88 per hour (unless it's gone
up again in the meantime).</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
point we were talking about is youth unemployment
Giles</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Employers
are not provided with any incentives to employ,
uneducated inexperienced kids (even though they'd
like to) 18 year olds when the min wage is $40k per
annum (once you add super, leave loading, sick pay,
public holidays, 4 weeks holidays, paid carers leave
& other entitlements in)</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">something
needs to change & unfortunately the current Gov
doesn't have any appetite for IR reform.</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">-P</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US"> AusNOG [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Giles Pollock<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 6 January 2015 11:19 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a></span></p>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Sysadmin
opportunities in Melbourne?</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5"><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Minimum wage in Australia for
tech jobs? Last time I checked the contractor
rates for a service desk analyst were A$12.50
(if you were lucky)... Yes, you can get more
working on a checkout (assuming they have not
been replaced with self-checkouts)</p>
</div>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at
12:10 PM, Paul Wallace <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au" target="_blank">paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/07/13/australian-minimum-wage-myth" target="_blank">http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2012/07/13/australian-minimum-wage-myth</a></span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#333333" lang="EN">The unseen consequences of
minimum wage laws are the millions of
poor, disadvantaged people who don't
have job opportunities. In the United
States, it hurts <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2011/05/11/minimum_wages_discriminatory_effects" target="_blank"><span style="color:#183a52;text-decoration:none">poor
people and inner-city minorities</span></a>.
In Australia, it hurts <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.smh.com.au/business/young-workers-hit-by-rising-unemployment-20120124-1qevx.html" target="_blank"><span style="color:#183a52;text-decoration:none">young
workers</span></a>.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:36.0pt;background:white"><span style="color:#333333" lang="EN">Australia
is an example of how minimum wage helps
some groups, and hurts others. Even in a
good economy, the young, inexperienced
workers are left out. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">-P</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang="EN-US"> AusNOG [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog-bounces@lists.ausnog.net</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Scott Howard<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 6 January 2015
11:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Wallace<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ausnog@lists.ausnog.net" target="_blank">ausnog@lists.ausnog.net</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [AusNOG] Sysadmin
opportunities in Melbourne?</span></p>
</div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Jan 5,
2015 at 4:55 PM, Paul Wallace <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au" target="_blank">paul.wallace@mtgi.com.au</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Kids
find it hard to get jobs
today because Australia
enforces a min wage of
double that in the USA.</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">it's
as simple as that!</span></p><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">And
now Tony Abbott is too
scared to look at HR
reform for fear the Labour
party will scream "Work
Choices" again!</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal">Minimum wage
in San Francisco - US$11.05, or
around A$13.63</p>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Minimum
wage in Sydney - A$16.87 (for
someone over 21).</p>
</div>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Higher?
Yes. Double? Not even close.</p>
</div>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal">Yes, other
parts of the US may be lower,
but the movement is towards
increasing to sane levels, not
reducing them.</p>
</div>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"> Scott</p>
</div>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
<div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
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</div><div> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
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</blockquote>
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<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Nick Stallman<br>
Agentpoint Pty Ltd <br>
The Real Estate Web Developers<br>
Melbourne | Sydney | Miami<br>
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